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Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

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Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#361
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anthropic is selling a service that incorporates these pirated works.

That a service incorporating the authors' works exists is not at issue. The plaintiffs' claims are, as summarized by Alsup: First, Authors argue that using works to train Claude’s underlying LLMs was like using works to train any person to read and write, so Authors should be able to exclude Anthropic from this use (Opp. 16). Second, to that last point, Authors further argue that the training was intended to memorize…

The first paragraph sounds absurd, so I looked into the PDF, and here's the full version I found:

> First, Authors argue that using works to train Claude’s underlying LLMs was like using works to train any person to read and write, so Authors should be able to exclude Anthropic from this use (Opp. 16). But Authors cannot rightly exclude anyone from using their works for training or learning as such. Everyone reads texts, too, then writes new texts. They may need to pay for getting their hands on a text in the first instance. But to make anyone pay specifically for the use of a book each time they read it, each time they recall it from memory, each time they later draw upon it when writing new things in new ways would be unthinkable. For centuries, we have read and re-read books. We have admired, memorized, and internalized their sweeping themes, their substantive points, and their stylistic solutions to recurring writing problems.

Couldn't have put it better myself (though $deity knows I tried many times on HN). Glad to see Judge Alsup continues to be the voice of common sense in legal matters around technology.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, people have gone to jail for a few copies of content. Taking that large of a corpus and getting off without penalty would be a farce of the justice system.

Bad decisions should not be repeated in the name of fair application.

They actually should, because generally an equal playing field is more important that correct law.

As an extreme example, consider murder. Obviously it should be illegal, but if it's legal for one group and not for another, the group for which it's illegal will probably be wiped out, having lost the ability to avenge deaths in the group.

It's much more important that laws are applied impartially and equally than that they are even a tiny bit reasonable.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#363
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, until then best to act as if it is the case. In my opinion, it will be upheld. Looking at what is stored and the manner which it is stored. It makes sense that it's fair use.

We're talking about a summary judgement issued that has not yet been appealed. That doesn't make it "settled." If by "what is stored and the manner which it is stored" is intended to signal model weights, I'm not sure what the argument is? The four factors of copyright in no way mention a storage medium for data, lossless or loss-y. (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commerci…

The use is to train an AI model.

A trillion parameter SOTA model is not substantially comprised of the one copyrighted piece. (If it was a Harry Potter model trained only on Harry Potter books this would be a different story).

Embeddings are not copy paste.

The last point about market impact would be where they make their argument but it's tenuous. It's not the primary use of AI models and built in prompts try to avoid this, so it shouldn't be commonplace unless you're jail breaking the model, most folk aren't.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#364
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the CFAA was the law that had him facing 35 years in prison and $1m+ fines. It wasn't a copyright case.

He wasn't facing anywhere near that. When the DOJ charges someone with a set of charges they like to say in the press release that the person is facing N years, where they get N by simply adding up the maximums for each charge that it is possible for a hypothetical defendant that has all the possible sentence enhancing factors to get. They also ignore that some charges group for sentencing--your sentence for the grou…

Yes, I meant "up to" that amount, which is implied when many people say "facing" before a trial happens. But it's not really relevant to my point, which was that it wasn't a copyright case.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

150K per work is the maximum fine for willful infringement (which this is). 105B+ is more than Anthropic is worth on paper. Of course they’re not going to be charged to the fullest extent of the law, they’re not a teenager running Napster in the early 2000s.

> 150K per work is the maximum fine for willful infringement No, its not. It's the maximum statutory damages for willful infringement, which this has not be adjudicated to be. it is not a fine, its an alternative to basis of recovery to actual damages + infringers profits attributable to the infringement. Of course, there's also a very wide range of statutory damages, the minimum (if it is not "innocent" infringement…

> It's the maximum statutory damages for willful infringement, which this has not be adjudicated to be. it is not a fine, its an alternative to basis of recovery to actual damages + infringers profits attributable to the infringement.

Yeah, you’re probably right, I’m not a lawyer. The point is that it doesn’t matter what number the law says they should pay, Anthropic can afford real lawyers and will therefore only pay a pittance, if anything.

I’m old enough to remember what the feds did to Aaron Schwarz, and I don’t see what Anthropic did that was so different, ethically speaking.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not wrong at all. The author decides what to do with their work. AI companies are rich and can simply buy the rights or hire people to create works. I could agree with exceptions for non-commercial activity like scientific research, but AI companies are made for extracting profits and not for doing research. > AI companies shouldn't pirate, but if they pay for your work, they should be able to use it however th…

If you reproduce the material from a work you've purchased then of course you're in violation of copyright, but that's not what an LLM does (and when it does I already conceded it's in violation and should be stopped). An LLM that doesn't "sell goods with movie characters" is not in violation. And the harm you describe is not a recognized harm. You don't own information, you own creative works in their entirety. If y…

> It is worse than ineffective; it is wrong too, because software developers should not exercise such power over what users do. Imagine selling pens with conditions about what you can write with them; that would be noisome, and we should not stand for it. Likewise for general software. If you make something that is generally useful, like a pen, people will use it to write all sorts of things, even horrible things such as orders to torture a dissident; but you must not have the power to control people's activities through their pens. It is the same for a text editor, compiler or kernel.

Sorry for the long quote, but basically this, yeah. A major point of free software is that creators should not have the power to impose arbitrary limits on the users of their works. It is unethical.

It's why the GPL allows the user to disregard any additional conditions, why it's viral, and why the FSF spends so much effort on fighting "open source but..." licenses.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's abusive and wrong to try and prevent AI companies from using your works at all. The whole point of copyright is to ensure you're paid for your work. AI companies shouldn't pirate, but if they pay for your work, they should be able to use it however they please, including training an LLM on it. If that LLM reproduces your work, then the AI company is violating copyright, but if the LLM doesn't reproduce your work…

It is not wrong at all. The author decides what to do with their work. AI companies are rich and can simply buy the rights or hire people to create works. I could agree with exceptions for non-commercial activity like scientific research, but AI companies are made for extracting profits and not for doing research. > AI companies shouldn't pirate, but if they pay for your work, they should be able to use it however th…

> Maybe instead of books we should start making applications that protect the content and do not allow copying text or making screenshots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're operating under a model where the owner of the copyright has already sold their work. And while it's within their rights to stipulate conditions of the sale, they did not do that, and fair use of the work as governed under the laws the book was sold under encompasses its conversion into an LLM model. If the author didn't want their work to be included in an LLM, they should not have sold it, just like if an aut…

> fair use of the work as governed under the laws the book was sold under encompasses its conversion into an LLM model If that were the case then this court case would not be ongoing

That seems to be a misunderstanding of what's disputed. One fact that is disputed is whether or not the use of the work qualifies as fair use and the judge determined that it is because the result is sufficiently transformative. Another disputed fact is whether the books were acquired legally and the judge determined that they were not. The reason the case is still ongoing is to determine Anthropic's liability for illegally acquiring copies of the books, not to determine the legal status of the LLMs.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You skipped quotes about the other important side: > But Alsup drew a firm line when it came to piracy. > "Anthropic had no entitlement to use pirated copies for its central library," Alsup wrote. "Creating a permanent, general-purpose library was not itself a fair use excusing Anthropic's piracy." That is, he ruled that - buying, physically cutting up, physically digitizing books, and using them for training is fair…

So all they have to do is go and buy a copy of each book they pirated. They will have ceased and desisted.

Generally you don't want laws to work that way. You want to set the penalties so that they discourage violating the law.

Setting the penalty to what it would have cost to obey the law in the first place does the opposite.

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