Earlier quoted context omitted.
> AIPAC is a lobby, just like many other lobbies Sure. One among many. They’re influential, but not deterministic. > that they've paid $53M to politicians No, they don’t. They’re reporting campaign donations. There is a tendency, when we disagree with an election, to tally up the donations made to the other side while ignoring all the times the best-funded candidate got trounced. (Jeb!) The influence of money in poli…
https://x.com/goddeketal/status/1934945918047998203/photo/1 aipac is boasting about funding majority of congress and is openly forcing candidates to pledge loyalty. If they dont pledge, they unleash the usual tools: funding the competing candidate, non-stop smearing campaigns via israeli-loyal media outlets and ethnically jewish journalists (==all mainstream media), bogus accusations of "antisemitism" and etc
Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
361–370 of 407 posts
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
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The purpose of the ICC is that the crimes of: Genocide, Crimes against humanity, War crimes and the crime of aggression should be prosecuted among its signatories. You are correct that its jurisdiction does not contain Israel or the US, given they withdrew. However signatories are expected to respect the warrants should individuals travel to states that are signatories. Therefore it is not exceeding the bounds of its…
You also called out crimes of aggression: most of what is listed as crimes of aggression amount to just war. You can probably debate about this with regards to the settlements, but don’t forget this current offensive doesn’t happen without Hamas attacking Israeli civilians on October 7th 2023. Israel was and is fully within their rights to prosecute a war against Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and even Iran for which all of these groups are proxies for until they achieve their war aims.
Another correction, the United States has never been party to the Rome Statute. We were part of the negotiations, we did sign but we ultimately decided against ratification therefore it never held the force of law and we withdrew our signature. From what I gathered, Israel is in the same boat, though I’m not clear what their ratification process looks like.
> However signatories are expected to respect the warrants should individuals travel to states that are signatories. Therefore it is not exceeding the bounds of its jurisdiction in issuing these warrants, otherwise one could simply withdraw, do a little war crime and rejoin, thereby creating a loophole. The whole point of the court is that it is international and looks at these crimes happening throughout the world, so its signatories play their part in encouraging them to not happen and prosecuting them when they do, when they can (i.e. when someone guilty of them travels to these nations).
The Court’s territorial jurisdiction is not “the world”, it is the territory and vessels of parties to the Rome Statute, nations which accept the ICC’s jurisdiction in a court filing, and others in situations that are referred to it by the United Nations Security Council. The personal jurisdiction is for all persons of nations over which the ICC has territorial jurisdiction, and likewise can be expanded with a referral of a situation by the UNSC.
The argument for prosecuting a non-party here is that well, Palestine is a party. It’s the stronger argument, but I think it should be insufficient, and it is the position of America and Israel that this is insufficient. In any case, the actual allegations are themselves insufficient in any situation where the ICC would have an interest in investigating and prosecuting if they don’t have the jurisdiction to do it.
> In that respect is it like interpol, where a nation can arrest someone who has committed a crime in a different country, if they flee to a country signed up to interpol, despite them not theoretically not having the juristdiction to do so (given the crime wasn't committed where the arrest was made).
Interpol is an outgrowth of bilateral extradition treaties, not a replacement for them. You still need the requisite extradition treaty in place, and if the crime alleged is not a crime for which they can be extradited per the relevant extradition treaty, then the arresting nation is under no obliteration to turn them over. In that sense, Interpol is more like an informational and cooperation forum between nations, whereas the ICC is an organization operationally separate and distinct from its members.
> Given Donald Trump's bizarre demand that the Europe re-arm itself (which imho is terribly short-sighted and might make US foreign policy more tricky in the future)
So, I’m not against re-arming Europe. From a menu of options that looks something like this:
1) Continuing to prop up Europe against Russian aggression regardless of their minimal defense spending.
2) Re-arming Europe but under continued American leadership.
3) Pushing Europe to re-arm and reconsider that whole American leadership bit.
4) Just pulling out of Europe entirely and ripping up NATO.
I favor number 2. I think even Trump favors number 2 but number 3 is what is actually happening. I would have been fine-ish but not happy about number 1 because there’s a real risk of the American public not being willing to defend say, the Baltics, against a Russian invasion regardless of what I think (I’m very pro keeping to our military commitments, even somewhat grudgingly if we must), and the risk of number 4 would have grown over time even in a world where Trump was never elected the first time, let alone the second, and actually getting to number 4 would be a worst of all worlds situation. I actually like Europe. I would like it to continue to be Europe, without getting obliterated again.
> as seen most recently with Netanyahu's trip to Poland
Did Netanyahu actually make the trek to Poland? I know he was went to Hungary, but Hungary has also decided to withdraw from the ICC. I heard reports he went to Greece, but haven’t actually seen that substantiated. I couldn’t find anything about a Polish visit earlier when I looked.
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
> what you directly claimed hinges upon this fallacy No. It doesn’t. It’s why I never cite general popularity for Israel. Only strong favour for and against. > this would make your clain of "Israel has had unique sway in America because for most of its history it has been uniquely popular" completely untrue Nope. Israel has a vocal minority that loves it. It has not had, until last last year, a vocal minority that ha…
>It doesn’t. It’s why I never cite general popularity for Israel Yet you cited "Israel is uniquely popular" as a reason for why they get their way. Which is not true. >Israel has a vocal minority that loves it. It has not had, until last last year, a vocal minority that hates it It not only had a vocal minority that hates it it had a vocal minority of Jews that loathe it. The minorities arent the point though, the mo…
take aipac, which barely scratches the top 10 of single-issue focused organizations. Aipac donated 43 mil to campaigns in 2023-24. The League of Conservation Warriors donated 50 million. Is the U.S. gov't being captured by environmental advocacy groups?
If you look at foreign agent registered spending, Israel spent 5.7 million in 2024. Compare that with China who spent 5.8 billion with a B.
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you’re talking about drone operators within the military, they are part of the President’s chain of command. Accountability resides there.
Could you give some examples of accountability?
Anything that violates the Uniform Code of Military Justice can land a soldier in the Army on that list up to and including killing random civilians abroad with military equipment outside the scope of an operation. You can look up the dockets for the other service branches yourself, but you don’t get impunity for all of your actions just for being part of the military.
Or if you want something more specific, here’s a rather high profile example: https://www.salon.com/2006/03/14/prosecutions_convictions/
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
> AIPAC is a lobby, just like many other lobbies Sure. One among many. They’re influential, but not deterministic. > that they've paid $53M to politicians No, they don’t. They’re reporting campaign donations. There is a tendency, when we disagree with an election, to tally up the donations made to the other side while ignoring all the times the best-funded candidate got trounced. (Jeb!) The influence of money in poli…
> The influence of money in politics is one of sharply-diminishing returns. It is invaluable for name recognition This part is true. > There is a tendency, when we disagree with an election, to tally up the donations made to the other side while ignoring all the times the best-funded candidate got trounced. (Jeb!) While this is too specific to a particular type of election to hold true in general (no pun intended). T…
I will amend my prior statements to be constrained to national politics. You can absolutely buy policy at the state and local level, because if you’re a candidate’s sole sugar daddy you have obvious influence over and goodwill owed from them.
The moment a candidate gains a profile, however, that channel becomes a two-way street. Donors will donate to maintain access and goodwill. Refusing to donate means being cut off; the elected has the leverage.
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
The purpose of the ICC is that the crimes of: Genocide, Crimes against humanity, War crimes and the crime of aggression should be prosecuted among its signatories. You are correct that its jurisdiction does not contain Israel or the US, given they withdrew. However signatories are expected to respect the warrants should individuals travel to states that are signatories. Therefore it is not exceeding the bounds of its…
Let me get this correction out at the top: I conceded that some IDF service members are probably guilty of some war crimes. I said absolutely nothing about crimes against humanity, which in reviewing the list of what the ICC considers a crime against humanity, I do not feel comfortable at all making any assertion one way or the other. It is important to get this right because the Rome Statute does make this distincti…
I only listed the four crimes the ICC deals with in terms of stating its directive, I wasn't asserting that Israel was necessarily guilty of all of them. In terms of things relevant to the current conflict in Gaza, war crimes and crimes against humanity are relatively easy to clear and genocide is a maybe because of the aid blockade. I entirely supported Israel's right to respond to the October the 7th attacks but we're so far past the point of the response being anywhere near proportionate and that we're so far in and Israel's objectives still have failed to have been met, demonstrates the issues with their approach. Its almost as if the cruelty is the point as opposed to the objectives of the supposed mission (especially now they're flinging rockets at Iran seemingly distracting themselves further from recovering the hostages).
There are other factors at play. Palestine is a signatory to the ICC and the crimes were committed in Gaza, also Israel themselves are failing to investigate these war crimes through their own legal system. These are apparently the arguments that give the ICC the confidence to issue these warrants. I mean what does it matter anyway? Netanyahu can just avoid travelling to signatory countries and he's fine.
The whole NATO thing remains short sighted, in the years to come, the USA will learn that some things are priceless. I imagine that GOP donor pressure to reduce the budget to maintain/enact tax cuts is the root source of these desires, which if true, is digustingly short-sighted. I LOVE the USA but the pre-2025 USA, that US hegemony policy from the 20th century promised peace and prosperity at an irksome but acceptable price. However I don't like it right now and if that nation continues to prop up erratic rulers like Donald Trump who enable warmongering rulers like Netanyahu instead of restraining them, then I will start to hate it and I am _far_ from alone on that. Combining that with encouraging Europe to re-arm is just lacking in imagination given that the USA will transition in such a future from the guaranteed winner to a potential loser. You didn't vote for this mess, did you?
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
it can be as simple that there was no more "national security ground" to delay it. and btw, to address "I feel like they didn't deserve that", israel didn't really want embassy moved. because (obviously) palestinians got angry and started a wave of violence that lasted for year or so and resulted in bunch of dead and wounded.
The "I feel like they didn't deserve that" was about the YPG in Syria, not Israel. > it can be as simple that there was no more "national security ground" to delay it. Maybe but what had changed exactly at that point? Without a contextual argument that explains it, I can't help but feel like its a tell that Donald Trump is more friendly to Israel than previous presidents.
another point, arab countries dropped "no normalization without palestinian state" approach (the see in past decade palestinian leadership as corrupt and incapable) and signed abraham accords. saudia was supposed to seal the deal as well but oct7 happened.
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
Have we ever done such a thing to any other country?
idk but for 24 years US presidents did that and then they didn't. I'm asking why and what I get out of it is that the current US president is maybe more friendly to Israel than previous presidents.
If there was some sort of precedence for not accepting capitals, I wouldn't have a problem, but as far as I can tell Israel is the only exception. I like consistent standards even if it is bad politicaly.
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let me get this correction out at the top: I conceded that some IDF service members are probably guilty of some war crimes. I said absolutely nothing about crimes against humanity, which in reviewing the list of what the ICC considers a crime against humanity, I do not feel comfortable at all making any assertion one way or the other. It is important to get this right because the Rome Statute does make this distincti…
my bad, he never made that trip to Poland in the end, but the Polish government passed a resolution to enable it, which made me figure it was a done deal. I only listed the four crimes the ICC deals with in terms of stating its directive, I wasn't asserting that Israel was necessarily guilty of all of them. In terms of things relevant to the current conflict in Gaza, war crimes and crimes against humanity are relativ…
Fair enough, even the bit about the Polish resolution is still good intel.
> You didn't vote for this mess, did you?
Oh hell nah. Doesn't matter though, Trump won every single step of the way.
> In terms of things relevant to the current conflict in Gaza, war crimes and crimes against humanity are relatively easy to clear and genocide is a maybe because of the aid blockade.
Even if granted up to but not including the claims of genocide, the question still remains over the ICC's jurisdiction, and the more that behave like Poland, Hungary and Germany, the more likely it is the ICC's claim in this specific conflict just becomes a dead letter regardless of Palestine having acceded to the Rome Statute.
> I entirely supported Israel's right to respond to the October the 7th attacks but we're so far past the point of the response being anywhere near proportionate and that we're so far in and Israel's objectives still have failed to have been met, demonstrates the issues with their approach. Its almost as if the cruelty is the point as opposed to the objectives of the supposed mission (especially now they're flinging rockets at Iran seemingly distracting themselves further from recovering the hostages).
I'm not going to claim to support every single action that the IDF has taken in this war, there's a lot that I don't, but as far this goes:
1) Flushing out and eliminating Hamas.
2) Flushing out and eliminating Hezbollah.
3) Suppressing and eliminating Iran's nuclear weapons development.
I'm pretty on board with that. Israel will never have peace with Hamas as long as Hamas continues to exist for the purpose of eliminating Israel. Israel will never have peace and Lebanon will never be able to fully exercise its own sovereignty over southern Lebanon as long as Hezbollah pursues to exist as a militaristic entity separate from the Lebanon Armed Forces and seeks the elimination of Israel. Israel will never have peace with an Iran that continues to seek its destruction and support proxies in the region that exist for the sole purpose of attacking with the goal of eliminating Israel.
It's pretty difficult for me to argue that the Israeli response has been disproportionate, especially as Hamas infamously uses Palestinians as a resource to be expended as meat shields. Far far fewer Palestinian civilians could have died in this war if Hamas gave a damn about them.
> The whole NATO thing remains short sighted, in the years to come, the USA will learn that some things are priceless.
Yep! Unfortunately it was never going to last, and that's why out of the menu of options I outlined above, I was very much in the #2 camp. #1 has more advantages to America if we can sustain the political will to maintain it but the truth is that the further we get from World War II and the Cold War, the fewer Americans believe that it is worth the full cost to be responsible for the bulk of Europe's defense. You can't really fight that kind of generational sentiment shift, just try to manage it and advocate for a more acceptable middle solution.
Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Westphalian sovereignty that you describe would refuse the authority of the Nuremberg trials.
The Nuremberg trials were just victor's justice, as demonstrated by the total impunity for all war crimes committed by the USSR.