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Why Koreans ask what year you were born

bryanhogan.com

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Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#361
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another example many people outside Brazil find interesting: in my family we were taught to never use the formal towards anyone. The rationale is that everyone is equal and that using the formal language was disrespectful because it created an artificial distance between us and the other person. We were also taught never to use the formal language when praying for the same reason. Interestingly this is why Quakers…

> People used "thou" (the familiar form) in conversations with God. People used "you" as a singular pronoun to be polite. Why didn't people address God with "you"?

> Why didn't people address God with "you"?

Even today, this tends to be the case in European languages that distinguish familiar and polite pronouns (what linguists call the T-V distinction). God tends to be an exception to the usual T-V rules.

The reason for this is that in all these languages, thou started out as simply the singular and you as the plural, with no politeness dimension at all. Using the plural pronoun (or third person pronouns, etc) for politeness was a fad that only spread around Europe in the Middle Ages (give or take).

Religious formulae, however, are generally extremely resistant to language change. This is a very consistent finding across the world; some of our best evidence in historical linguistics comes from religious texts (such as the Rigveda, the Avesta, etc). Religion tends to be, not surprisingly, a highly conservative and ritualised domain.

Thus, prayers in European languages with the T-V distinction generally retain the use of T forms when addressing God. There are all sorts of lovely folk explanations for this, but the real reason is basically just because prayers predate the T-V system altogether.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#362
I'm a person of European descent married to a person of Korean descent. Her mother's age has always been a question mark. As she aged and her memory became less reliable, it became even moreso. Nevermind not being entirely certain of her actual birthday...

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#363
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People used "thou" (the familiar form) in conversations with God. People used "you" as a singular pronoun to be polite. Why didn't people address God with "you"?

> Why didn't people address God with "you"? Even today, this tends to be the case in European languages that distinguish familiar and polite pronouns (what linguists call the T-V distinction). God tends to be an exception to the usual T-V rules. The reason for this is that in all these languages, thou started out as simply the singular and you as the plural, with no politeness dimension at all. Using the plural prono…

Thanks! That actually makes a lot of sense.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#364
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an obvious foreigner, you are 100% exempt from all this. In fact, if you get it right, it'll make them feel weird and they'll try to avoid that. I read a story once about someone who went to McDonalds in Japanese, and the clerk flipped the menu to the English side. The person flipped it back over, and the clerk flipped it to English again! They simply couldn't believe the foreigner could read it. And I've read sto…

> As an obvious foreigner, you are 100% exempt from all this. In fact, if you get it right, it'll make them feel weird and they'll try to avoid that. Are you sure? In Korea, everyone who seriously cares about this stuff absolutely prefer it if you get all of it right. Of course, plenty of people (probably most under 30) secretly hate it and are therefore thankful if you don't get it right as it gives them a semi-out…

They aren't going to live there. They're going as tourists.

If you want to live there, in standard apartments and jobs, then yes, people are going to be annoyed constantly by all the things you do 'wrong'.

But as a tourist or visitor of any kind, all those misdeeds are easily forgiven, and they can even enjoy the difference.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#365

It can also be considered rude to use the more formal style of speech when the social hierarchy dictates the informal style should be used. The book Using Korean[1] gives a detailed explanation of how formal speech indicates social distance more than simple politeness: > [존댓말] indicates a psychological distance between the speaker and the hearer... a couple in a romantic relationship who normally use an intimate casu…

Damn, the last thing I need is my wife switching to formal language when she’s mad at me.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#366
post #6

> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.) I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name. Being "on a first name basis…

It's interesting for me as I'm Serbian but grew up in Indonesia. In Serbian we very much have honorifics (I think honorifics is the wrong word, not sure what the correct one is) and rules like "Younger always addresses the older with vi instead of ti, and vama instead of tebi etc. unless you're relatives or are close", but it also applies generally for strangers, so even if you're the same age or even if you're older, it's more polite to use the formal forms.

In Indonesia nobody really cares too much, and I called my teachers everything from "Ibu X" (Ibu meaning ma'am/miss, but also mother) to their first names or a mixture like "Ibu FirstOrLastName". At best you'll get a "bapak/ibu" which is basically just sir/ma'am, but I've been called "kak" (lit. translated it's something like "little sister/brother", it's a very asian concept and a lot of cultures have the same, like oniichan).

I always struggle when I go back to Serbia, 'cause I wasn't really brought up with the importance of honorifics. It feels weird when I get a kid using honorifics with me, feels like I'm 60 (I'm in my 20s), and likewise people look at me like I just spat in their face if I don't use the honorifics sometimes.

Language is truly fascinating!

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#367
post #6

> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.) I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name. Being "on a first name basis…

Giving respect based on seniority is one of the major reasons why autocracies thrive unchecked in some countries as younger people are unable to hold older folks accountable.

Everyone in Yugoslavia was called "Drug" (pronounced droog, Friend), it'd be hard to claim it wasn't autocratic. Same with the USSR and China.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#368
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, as a German (which also has a similar system), I am the complete opposite, I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name. And the worst part is having to figure out how to address others, especially people you've known for a while but aren't really close to, e.g. say long-time neighbors I rarely meet. Luckily, in the IT industry, it's common to just use first names with everybody.

This is remarkable because from my outsider glimpse German culture puts an emphasis on formality and credentials. If someone has a signature like "Dr. Ing. Prof. Anselm Schultz" am sure not opening my email with "Hi Anselm".

Mr. Doctor Professor

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#369
post #173

I find it surprising actually how much these seniority rules are well-defined in many cultures, but in Brazil there is strong variation - even in the same geography. For example, a colleague who is learning Brazilian Portuguese was under the impression that "você" and "tu" were the equivalent of "vous/tu" or "Sie/du". In reality, they are just different regional ways of saying the informal you. In Brazilian Portugues…

I feel like the American version of intra-family respect variations is “Father” vs “Dad”. In my family growing up, my dad’s name was “Dad” from my POV. “Father” was a strange-to-me formality that only a couple of my friends’ families use. “Hey Dad, wanna grab lunch?” is technically using a title of respect, but feels way different than “Hello, Father. Would you like to make lunch plans?” My kids call me Dad, unless w…

Typo: “…I heard my friend talking to his dad…”

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#370
post #303
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like tu vs vous is extra annoying in French when you're speaking to someone who's not a stranger. I have no desire to judge if you think you're too famous of eg a professor for me to say tu, your success doesn't create a hierarchy between us, and it's annoying if you think so. I much prefer English for that.

It's not really a question of fame but more of respect, we are not relatives, so you do not use tu.

agree to disagree
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