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John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

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Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#361
post #21

I feel top level AI creation is beyond his skill set. He’s a AAA software engineer but the prerequisites to build out cutting edge AI require deep formal math that is beyond his education and years at this point. Nothing to stop him playing around with AI models though.

What do you mean "beyond his skill set"? He effectively invented 3D gaming, which led to major leaps and investments into graphics cards which are now used for cryptocurrency and AI. He also did significant contributions into VR. He's probably one of the most qualified people around.

He definitely did not invent 3D, he just pioneered it for PC gaming and got PC gaming up to speed to console gaming

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#362
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really seem like there's much utility in defining it. It's like defining "heaven." It's an ideal that some people believe in, and we're perpetually marching towards it

No, it’s never going to be precise but it’s important to have a good rough definition. Can we just use Morris et al and move on with our lives? Position: Levels of AGI for Operationalizing Progress on the Path to AGI: https://arxiv.org/html/2311.02462v4 There are generational policy and societal shifts that need to be addressed somewhere around true Competent AGI (50% of knowledge work tasks automatable). Just like c…

This is a great reply, thank you.

For me, I just zoom out a little further and say: at the rate AGI is approaching, what is the utility in trying to regulate it ahead of time?

Seems like advancement is slow enough that society can/will naturally regulate it based on what feels comfortable.

And it's a global phenomenon that can't have rules applied at the protocol level like the internet, because it's so culturally subjective.

Precedents need to be set first, and I think we'll only be able to call them when we see them.

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#363

Another thought experiment - if OpenAI AGI was right around the corner, why are they wasting time/money/energy buying a product-less vanity hardware startup run by Ive? Why not tackle robotics if anything. Or really just be the best AGI and everyone will be knocking on your door to license it in their hardware/software stacks, you will print infinite money.

They have a large robotics research group.

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rage was Carmack's last big game at id Software before leaving. Romero is credited on 27 games since he left id Software. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Romero#Games

None of them came close to the success of Quake, Doom or Commander Keen. If you examine the list it includes games like "Gunman Taco Truck" by his 12yo sun, SIGIL I/II (Doom mods) and a remake of Dangerous Dave. Most of the money he made post-id came from Facebook farming games. I'm not saying he's doing nothing. He's extremely talented and achieved more than most of us could ever dream of. I'm just pointing out that…

Their success with Doom and Quake was a confluence of things that cannot be replicated today. Carmack's programming talent gave them at least a year head start versus the competition. They introduced a new genre with no competition. Romero wrote game development tools that made them productive and able to deliver quickly. The artists and game designers created something innovative and fun to play, that stood the test of time.

Duke Nukem was released in 1996, then Unreal was released in 1998 and that's when they lost their technical advantage. The market became saturated with FPS.

Romero and Tom Hall founded Ion Storm which produced one successful game - Deus Ex. He gave up on AAA and went back to creating small games.

Carmack's licensed code was the basis of many successful games beyond the 90s, including Half Life 1 and 2 and the latest Doom games. We wouldn't have Half Life without id Software. Maybe Valve Software wouldn't exist.

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#365
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s never going to be precise but it’s important to have a good rough definition. Can we just use Morris et al and move on with our lives? Position: Levels of AGI for Operationalizing Progress on the Path to AGI: https://arxiv.org/html/2311.02462v4 There are generational policy and societal shifts that need to be addressed somewhere around true Competent AGI (50% of knowledge work tasks automatable). Just like c…

This is a great reply, thank you. For me, I just zoom out a little further and say: at the rate AGI is approaching, what is the utility in trying to regulate it ahead of time? Seems like advancement is slow enough that society can/will naturally regulate it based on what feels comfortable. And it's a global phenomenon that can't have rules applied at the protocol level like the internet, because it's so culturally su…

It’s a good point. For epistemic hygiene I think it’s critical to actually have models of the growth rate and what is implied. Eg we are seeing exponential growth on many capability metrics (some with doubling-times of 7 months), but haven’t joined this up to economic growth numbers. In models where the growth continues you could imagine stuff getting crazy quickly, eg one year AI contributes 0.5% GDP only measurable in retrospect, next year 2%, year after 8%.

Personally I don’t think politicians are capable of adapting fast enough to this extreme scenario. So they need to start thinking about it (and building and debating legislation) long before it’s truly needed.

Of course if it turns out that we are living in one of the possible worlds where true economically meaningful capabilities are growing more slowly, or bottlenecks just happen to appear at this critical phase in the growth curve, then this line of preparation isn’t needed, but I’m more concerned about downside tail risk than the real but bounded costs of delaying progress by a couple years. (Though of course, we must ensure we don’t do to AI what we did to nuclear).

Finally I’ll note in agreement with your point, that there are a whole class of solutions that are mostly incomprehensible or inconceivable to most people at this time (ie currently fully outside the Overton Window). Eg radical abundance -> UBI might just solve the potential inequities of the tech, and therefore make premature job protection legislation vastly harmful on net. I mostly say “just full send it” when it comes to these mundane harms, it’s the existential ones (including non-death “loss of control” scenarios) that I feel warrant some careful thought. For that reason while I see where you are coming from, I somewhat disagree on your conclusion; I think we can meaningfully start acting on this as a society now.

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#366
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's because it had such high system requirements that very few people could run it, unlike Wolfenstein 3D and Doom.

It was just about playable on a 25MHz 386. We used to put up with frame rates that would make your eyes bleed back in the early 90s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VdRXgWoShM

I'm sorry but that is not very playable even when it only renders to a quarter of the screen, especially compared to Wolfenstein 3D on similar hardware. It was also quite clunky in terms of interface. The guy on the video spends like 3 minutes trying to pick up a sack on the floor before just giving up.

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Graphics Carmack" is a genius but that doesn't mean that "AI Carmack" is too.

What has "Graphics Carmack" actually done since about 2001? So, his initial tech was "Adaptive tile refresh" in Commander Keen, used to give it console style pixel-level scrolling. Turns out, they actually hampered themselves in Commander Keen 1 by not understanding the actual tech, and implemented "The Jolt", a feature that was not necessary. The actual hardware implemented scrolling the same way that consoles like…

Please read https://twobithistory.org/2019/11/06/doom-bsp.html and https://30fps.net/pages/pvs-portals-and-quake/

Also, I think most of the x86 magic was done by Abrash.

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

He is casually dismissing an entire major branch of RL research. Nothing to do with Carmack or any "cult" figure. This is not a solved problem. https://huggingface.co/learn/deep-rl-course/en/unitbonus3/of...

If anyone other than John Carmack would say "I'll burn a bunch of money to rebuild some demos from 10 years ago"... well, let's just say this thread would look very different.

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#369

Another thought experiment - if OpenAI AGI was right around the corner, why are they wasting time/money/energy buying a product-less vanity hardware startup run by Ive? Why not tackle robotics if anything. Or really just be the best AGI and everyone will be knocking on your door to license it in their hardware/software stacks, you will print infinite money.

If Ive hype brings more investment valuation than it costs to acquire his company, and the time costs etc., it's a win for current investors regardless of if it is a good investment for the investors in the new round.

Re: John Carmack talk at Upper Bound 2025

#370
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If DOOM released in 1994 or 1995, would we still remember it in the same way? Maybe. One aspect of Wolfenstein and Doom's popularity is that it was years ahead of everyone else technically on PC hardware. The other aspect is that they were genre defining titles that set the standards for gameplay design. I think Doom Deathmatch would have caught on in 1995, as there really were very few (just Command and Conquer?)…

I guess the thing about rapid change is... it's hard to imagine what kind of games would exist in a DOOMless world in an alternate 1995. The first 3d console games started to come out that year, like Rayman. Star Wars Dark Forces with its own custom 3d engine also came out. Of course Dark Forces was, however, an overt clone of DOOM. It's a bit ironic, but I think the gameplay innovation of DOOM tends to hold up more…

> Things like BSP for level partitioning have slowly been phased out of game engines

Hey, can you say more / do you have a link about this? I mean, for what reason are BSP trees phased out, and what are they replaced with? (quad/oct tree? AABB trees? or something entirely different?)

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