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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

nytimes.com

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Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#361

Post by walthamstow »

stuaxo wrote: post #359

Hi from London: The centre is much more pleasant to walk in, as are most places in the zone. Pollution is much, much better: if you came to London and travelled on the underground you would have black snot when you blew your nose, this hasn't been the case for a few years now. I hope NY gets the sake improvements.

London has changed for the better for sure but black snot on the tube hasn't changed at all. I get it from 20 minutes on any deep line like the Victoria. It's from train brake dust, nothing to do with vehicle emissions.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#362

Post by lazide »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #307
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. I just got back from Beijing and long journeys across the city in a taxi...they aren't really feasible. Yes, comfortable, but no, the traffic is still really really bad. Subway is much quicker, but the routes are often indirect and require one or two changes, but at least you know you'll get where you need to go.

If you ride the subway enough in Beijing or Shanghai, eventually you will come to the conclusion that both cities are just way too big. No matter how many subways that you build, getting from one place to another takes a minimum of 45 mins (including some walking on both ends). New York, London, Seoul, and Tokyo all suffer from similar problems -- giant metro systems, but these cities are huge.

That’s why you often end up with ‘cities within a city’ (ala wards, boroughs, districts, etc) and in those cases it’s easier to mentally model the overall city more like a small state.

If you’re sensitive to commute time, you’ll want to live in the same ‘city’ as you work, for instance, or at least nearby. But it will cost you a lot of money, and you’ll get a closet.

If you want the ‘big house with a lawn’ experience, you’ll pick a distant ‘city’ or even another ‘state’ (in this case, a city in a nearby suburb).

Typical case, it’s an hour+ end to end from one side to the other even on the fastest transit for Tokyo or London, and they have really good transit systems.

Singapore similar when it’s busy (which is actually quite a feat considering how small of an island it is).

It’s been awhile since I’ve been in Manhattan, but I remember it being roughly 1-2 hrs too.

Mega cities like Mumbai? Double that.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#363

Post by lazide »

walthamstow wrote: post #361
stuaxo wrote: post #359

Hi from London: The centre is much more pleasant to walk in, as are most places in the zone. Pollution is much, much better: if you came to London and travelled on the underground you would have black snot when you blew your nose, this hasn't been the case for a few years now. I hope NY gets the sake improvements.

London has changed for the better for sure but black snot on the tube hasn't changed at all. I get it from 20 minutes on any deep line like the Victoria. It's from train brake dust, nothing to do with vehicle emissions.

The Tube has a real ventilation issue - not just the brake dust, but also temps and staleness. Some of those lines, it’s like a 24/7 sauna!

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#364

Post by walthamstow »

lazide wrote: post #363
walthamstow wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London has changed for the better for sure but black snot on the tube hasn't changed at all. I get it from 20 minutes on any deep line like the Victoria. It's from train brake dust, nothing to do with vehicle emissions.

The Tube has a real ventilation issue - not just the brake dust, but also temps and staleness. Some of those lines, it’s like a 24/7 sauna!

I think I read that the warmth from people and braking has baked some of the clay earth around the tunnels, making them even more insulative!

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#365

Post by stuaxo »

aynyc wrote: post #271

As a long time NYC resident who moved out during Covid but commute to work in the city. I definitely noticed less traffic on the streets and less noise. I see a lot of talk of other cities that don't have good public transportation. For example, between Flushing in Queens to 8th Ave in Brooklyn, there are privately run buses at affordable rate and get you there at half the time of trains. There are buses from a lot o…

I don't think London has private mini buses like that, just a huge amount of buses.

They are operated by companies for TFL (though they are all red, you can read the company name).

I'm not sure at what point that arrangement happened, somewhere between the outright privatisations of the 80s, or the stealth ones of the black years, which used PFI.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#366

Post by BlackFly »

choeger wrote: post #345

I wonder if this will eventually lead to increased density and if that then leads to congested bike lanes. Will the cities of tomorrow regulate traffic between individual buildings? Make no mistake, bikes are much, much, better for urban centers than cars. But the overall problem isn't cars, it's individual traffic in densely populated areas. Certain policy here in Europe simply assumes that people stay in their surr…

Bikes just don't take up nearly as much space as cars and don't really block each other as much: gridlock is a problem for cars but not really for bikes. In the Netherlands there are a number of famous intersections where there are no signs nor right of way rules and people on bikes and pedestrians just pass through each other by slowing down and taking turns. These intersection rules were chosen because of the high density: individuals in them can simply deal with the conditions better than formulated timeslots for right of way that waste time while changing priority. Some of these intersections also permit cars but the number of cars in such areas is generally small or limited to buses.

There is a natural limit to how far people want to bike (in a statistical sense, as the distance increases the number of people willing to bike that far drops). The highest density ends up occurring around train stations which is a focal point for foot and bicycle traffic and necessitates large bike parking lots. Those people then switch to trains although they might pick up a bike on the other side. Some people prefer bike rental for these reasons, since when you drop off your bike someone coming the other direction can take it and you can pick up another one at the end of the train ride.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#367

Post by PaulRobinson »

walthamstow wrote: post #361
stuaxo wrote: post #359

Hi from London: The centre is much more pleasant to walk in, as are most places in the zone. Pollution is much, much better: if you came to London and travelled on the underground you would have black snot when you blew your nose, this hasn't been the case for a few years now. I hope NY gets the sake improvements.

London has changed for the better for sure but black snot on the tube hasn't changed at all. I get it from 20 minutes on any deep line like the Victoria. It's from train brake dust, nothing to do with vehicle emissions.

Victoria might be one of the worst for this. You can hear the wheels screaming the abrasion off for long sections of it. It’ll be interesting to see whether the Piccadilly gets better for you when the new trains arrive over the next couple of years.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#368

Post by azath92 »

walthamstow wrote: post #364
lazide wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tube has a real ventilation issue - not just the brake dust, but also temps and staleness. Some of those lines, it’s like a 24/7 sauna!

I think I read that the warmth from people and braking has baked some of the clay earth around the tunnels, making them even more insulative!

Because of how old they are there is some really interesting long term data as the earth itself around the tunnels reaches a new thermal equilibrium. In looking for a source, i found a good wikipedia article on tube temp in general.

These comments and the article made me see how much of it is/was due to braking. TIL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_cooling

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#369

Post by chgs »

choeger wrote: post #345

I wonder if this will eventually lead to increased density and if that then leads to congested bike lanes. Will the cities of tomorrow regulate traffic between individual buildings? Make no mistake, bikes are much, much, better for urban centers than cars. But the overall problem isn't cars, it's individual traffic in densely populated areas. Certain policy here in Europe simply assumes that people stay in their surr…

https://danielbowen.com/2012/09/19/road-space-photo/

Bike and bus take the same amount of space. Cars take up far more.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#370

Post by PaulRobinson »

aynyc wrote: post #271

As a long time NYC resident who moved out during Covid but commute to work in the city. I definitely noticed less traffic on the streets and less noise. I see a lot of talk of other cities that don't have good public transportation. For example, between Flushing in Queens to 8th Ave in Brooklyn, there are privately run buses at affordable rate and get you there at half the time of trains. There are buses from a lot o…

A lot of the UK did this in the 1980s and it’s turned into such a disaster, most mayors and local authorities are trying to move to the London model: companies can bid a flat rate to deliver a bus service (effectively, they commit to providing drivers to deliver the timetable). TfL collects all fares. They also - I think - supply most of the buses to ensure they are of a certain standard, but the companies need to lease them, and maintain them.

This means you get private companies trying to lower costs and so costs are privatised, but the profits (if any) are socialised into a public authority.

This then allows TfL to offer system-wide passes making bus travel over all 43 boroughs cost effective.

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