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US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

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Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#361
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If AI is so important, maybe it should be owned by the government and free to use for all citizens.

Name two non-military things that the government owns and aren't complete dumpster fires that barely do the thing they're supposed to do. Even (especially?) the military is a dumpster fire but it's at least very good at doing what it exists to do.

Roads and telecommunication. You can argue they are indeed a dumpster fire, but imagine the alternatives full of tolls and incompatible wavelengths.

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#362
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could apply that same logic to any IP breaches though, not just AI

Your employee steals your source code and sells it to multiple competitors. Why should you have any right to go after those competitors?

Because they bought code from someone not authorized to sell it?

This isn't some new phenomenon. We do indeed seize assets from buyers if the seller stole them.

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the kind of IP at issue in this post and discussion is copyright, not personality rights. If we're talking about the views of the copyright office and how that relates to artists, it's implicit that we're staying in copyright land, because there has never been a case about style-as-IP in visual art.

> . If we're talking about the views of the copyright office and how that relates to artists, it's implicit that we're staying in copyright land, because there has never been a case about style-as-IP in visual art. This article is literally about the copyright office finding AI companies violating copyright law by training their models on copyrighted material. I'm not even sure what you're arguing about anymore.

The Copyright Office is not an authority in this context, it's just an opinion. They did not make any "finding". To a judge they may as well be any other amicus curiae.

My opinion on the matter at hand is this: Artists who complain about GenAI use the hypothetical that you mentioned, where if you can accurately recreate a copyrighted work through specific model usage, then any distribution of the model is a copyright violation. That's why, according to the argument, fair use does not apply.

The real problem with that is that there's a mismatch between the fair use analysis and the actual use at issue. The complaining artists want the fair use inquiry to focus on the damage to the potential market to works in their particular style. That's where the harm is according to them. However, what they use to even get into that stage is the copyright infringement allegation that I described earlier: that the models contain their works on a fixed manner which can be derived without permission.

Not to mention the fact that this position means putting the malicious usage of the models for outright copyright infringement at the output level above the entire class of new works that can be created by its usage. It's effectively saying "because these models can technically be used in an infringing way, it infringes our copyright and any creative potential that these models could help with are insignificant in comparison to that simple fact. Of course, that's not the actual real problem, which is that they output completely new works that compete with our originals, even when they aren't derivatives of, nor substantially similar to, any individual copyrighted work".

Here's a very good article outlining my position in a more articulate way: https://andymasley.substack.com/p/a-defense-of-ai-art

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#364
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans can read a book, get inspiration, and write a new book and not be litigated against Humans get litigated against this all the time . There is such thing as, charitably, being too inspired. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_subject_to_plagi...

If you follow these cases more closely over time you'll find that they're less an example of humans stealing work from others and more an example of typical human greed and pride. Old, well established musicians arguing that younger musicians stole from them for using a chord progression used in dozens of songs before their own original, or a melody on the pentatonic scale that sounds like many melodies on the pentat…

> art is derivative in some sense, it's almost always just a matter of degree.

Yes, that's why we judge on a case by case basis. The line is blurry.

I think when you're storing copies of such assets in your database that you're well past the line, though.

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#365
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disney has a copyright over Moana. I would argue Moana is an idea in the sense that most people think of as ideas. Moana isn't tangle, it's not a physical good. It's not a plate on my table. It only exists in our heads. If I made a Moana comic book, with an entirely original storyline and original art and it was all drawn in my own style and not using 3D assets similar to their movies, that is violating copyright. Mo…

In the world you’re proposing, you would also not be able to make word-for-word copies of Harry Potter books, because Harry Potter wouldn’t exist.

why not? people write fiction all the time and put it on the internet for free. in fact, i'd say there's significantly more unpaid fiction writing in the world than paid.

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#366
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s so fucking obviously illegal when you think about it rationally for more than a few seconds. We aren’t even talking about “fair use” we are talking about how it works in practice which was Meta torrenting pirated books, never paying anyone a cent and straight up stealing the content at scale.

The fact you are even using the word stealing, is telling to your lack of knowledge in this field. Copyright infringement is not stealing[0]. The propaganda of the copyright cartel has gotten to you. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985...

> Copyright infringement is not stealing

If we can agree that taking away of your time is theft (wage theft, to be precise), we as those who rely on intellect in our careers should be able to agree that the taking of our ideas is also theft.

>moved to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, where he argued that the goods he was distributing were not "stolen, converted or taken by fraud", according to the language of 18 U.S.C. 2314 - the interstate transportation statute under which he was convicted. The court disagreed, affirming the original decision and upholding the conviction. Dowling then took the case to the Supreme Court, which sided with his argument and reversed the convictions.

This just tells me that the definition is highly contentious. Having the supreme court reverse a federal ruling already shows misalignment.

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs are certainly not a jpeg or a database... Their weights are derived from copyrighted works. Evaluating them preserves the semantic meaning and character of the source material. And the output directly competes against the copyrighted source materials. The fact they're smudgy and non-deterministic doesn't change how they relate to the rights of authors and artists.

>Their weights are derived from copyrighted works. Evaluating them preserves the semantic meaning and character of the source material. That sounds like you're arguing that they should be legal. Copyright law protects specific expressions, not handwavy "smudgy and non-deterministic" things.

Llms can't express, that's the primary issue. You can't just make a collage of copyrighted works and shield yourself from copyright with "expression".

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#368
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs are certainly not a jpeg or a database... Their weights are derived from copyrighted works. Evaluating them preserves the semantic meaning and character of the source material. And the output directly competes against the copyrighted source materials. The fact they're smudgy and non-deterministic doesn't change how they relate to the rights of authors and artists.

The problem is, you can say all of that for human learning-from-copyrighted-works, so that point isn't definitive.

Scales of effect always come into play when enacting law. If you spend a day digging a whole on the beach, you're probably not going to incur much wrath. If you bring a crane to the beach, you'll be stopped because we know the hole that can be made will disrupt the natural order. A human can do the same thing eventually, but does it so slowly that it's not an issue to enforce 99.9% of the time.

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the obvious analogy is LLM=Human, and not LLM=JPEG or LLM=database? I think you're overstating the legal uniqueness of LLMs. They're covered just fine by the existing legal precedents around copyrighted and derived works, just as building a death star would be covered by existing rules around outer space use and WMDs. Pretending they should be treated differently is IMO the entire lie told by the "AI…

If they were a database, they would be unquestionably legal, because they're only storing a tiny fraction of one percent of the data from any document, and even that data is not any particular replica of any part of the document, but highly summarized and transformed.

Given that you can in fact prompt enough to reproduce a source image, I'm not convinced that is the actual truth of the matter.

Re: US Copyright Office found AI companies breach copyright. Its boss was fired

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with I think a case that everyone agrees with. If I were to take an image, and compress it or encrypt it, and then show you data file, you would not be able to see the original copyrighted material anywhere in the data. But if you had the right computer program, you could use it to regenerate the original image flawlessly. I think most people would easily agree that distributing the encrypted file without…

The crux of the debate is a motte and bailey. AI is capable of reproducing copyright (motte) therefore training on copyright is illegal (bailey).

That's just the reproducing part. They also shared copies of scraped web sites, etc without the authors' permission. Unauthorized copying has been widely known to be illegal for a long time. They've already broken the law before the training process even begins.
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