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Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

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Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#361
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

…but still marketed for NAS users, alas.

I should have been more specific: not suitable for RAID NAS RAID and NAS used to go together when drive capacities were lower. E.g. I had a 9TB NAS with RAID5 at times when 8TB drives were >$500 a pop. These days, NAS does not necessarily imply having a RAID setup. I see a new "build your SFF/RPi NAS" article every week, and it rarely involves RAID. This is because a NAS setup with a single high-capacity drive and an…

That's an interesting point I hadn't considered. To me, NAS implies RAID. You might be right that this is no longer true.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#362
Bought a Synology in 2020, been using it for backups and Plex since then. Only recently started doing a little more with it (Immich, Kavita, etc.)

Sometimes I brush up against its limitations and its annoying to me; other times I like the convenience it provides (Cloud Sync, Hyper Backup). Even before this announcement, I think that when this thing bites the dust, I would likely build something myself and run Unraid or TrueNAS.

IMO what they really needed to do was improve the QuickConnect service to function similar to Cloudflare Zero Access/Tunnels, or integrate better with that. That's really the missing link in turning your NAS into a true self hosted service that can compete with big tech cloud services, in that you won't expose your home IP and won't need to fiddle around with a reverse proxy yourself.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#363
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which WD drives specifically were misleading customers? It's fine to have 'Synology supported drives' which guarantee compatability, but requiring them is absolute bollocks.

WD Red drives. They released a new version of their WD Red drive, and the only difference they stated in the specs was that it had more cache. So I thought, great, this is their updated model with more cache, it's going to be faster. After some time, people started to post about problems with the new WD Red drives. People had troubles restoring failed drives, I had a problem where I think the drives never stopped rew…

> This was a huge controversy. But apparently selling SMR drives is profitable, so WD claims the problem is just that NAS software needs to be made compatible with SMR drives, and all is well. They are still selling SMR drives in their WD Red line.

Well, SMR lets you store more stuff on the same platter (more or less); fewer platters reduces costs, etc.

WD's claims about it being a software problem would be more reasonable if they were providing guidance about what the software needs to do to perform well with these drives, and probably that would involve having information about the drive available to the OS/filesystem rather than hidden.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The counterargument is, people won’t listen and then blame Synology when their data is affected I see this kind of arguments “X had to do Y otherwise customers would complain” a lot every time a company does something shady and some contrarian wants to defend them, but it really isn't as smart as you think it is: the company doesn't care if people complain, otherwise they wouldn't be doing this kind of move either,…

Your absolute conviction is misplaced. Support is expensive to provide, especially on hardware that’s expensive to ship around. This may be a bad move, and you’re certainly right that Synology expects to make more profit with this policy than without it, but it’s a more complex system than you understand. Irate customers calling support and review-bombing for their own mistakes are a real cost. I don’t blame Synology…

The thing is, that more professional market would never make the mistake of putting SMR drives in a RAID array anyway and they are also (I hope) good enough at doing their own research to filter out reviews from uneducated retail consumers. So, again, we’re left with trying to find a justification for this move other than Synology’s profits.

And when this issue happened with WD drives, I don’t remember a backlash against Synology at all. WD, on the other hand, deserved and received plenty of blame.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#365
I had asked them for years for the ability to exclude folders by name (or regex) in Synology Drive Sync to be able to keep out node_modules, .git and other garbage from synchronizing to my NAS. Support responded that I can just unselect the folder manually. They have never implemented it.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are redundancy and drive failure handled? The only capacity mix-and-match scheme I have familiarity with is btrfs.

Synology SHR is btrfs (or ext4) on top of LVM and MD. MD is used for redundancy. LVM is used to aggregate multiple MD arrays into a volume group and to allow creating one or move volumes from that volume group.

Comment I responded to was using LVM on its own and I was wondering about durability. The docs seem to suggest LVM supports various software raid configurations but I'm not clear how that interacts with mixing and matching physical volumes of different sizes.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#367
post #173

The reason I chose Synology over others was their SHR "filesystem", where you can continue adding heterogeneously sized disks after constructing the FS and it will make the most use possible out of the extra capacity in the new disks. When I researched it ZFS did not yet have the resizing feature merged, now it does, though I think it is still not able to use this extra space. I'm wondering if anybody has any better…

In addition to the alternatives already mentioned, I've been very happy with SnapRAID+MergerFS for a few years now. I don't have to worry about a magical black box as with btrfs or ZFS, I can expand the array with disks of any size, if one disk fails I only lose the data on that disk while the array remains usable, and it's dead simple to setup and maintain. The only drawback, if I can call it that, is that syncs are…

I was disappointed when I fully understood the limitations of SHR after purchasing my Synology box, and subsequently failed to install MergerFS on it. It's the only thing I miss about my old self managed server.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#368
post #353
post #204

As someone who was in the marekt for getting a Synology, this has moved Synology onto my "do not trust and avoid"-list. It is very hard to get of that list and I will warn everybody wbo asks me about tech advice (so literally everybody in my vicinity) about vendors on that list. Good luck Synology.

The thing is they dont care about you anymore. They have moved firmly into the SME market which is why they are making decisions which dont really affect company purchase policies, but really upset personal users.

Well it is good then that I did not trust that company.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#369
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite, AFAIK? Drive controllers may internally remap blocks to physical disk blocks (e.g. when a bad sector is detected; see the SMART attribute Reallocated Sector Count).

Logical Block Addressing (LBA) by its very nature provides no hard guarantees about where the blocks are located. However, the convention that both sides (file systems and drive controllers) recognize is that runs of consecutive LBAs generally refer to physically contiguous regions of the underlying storage (and this is true for both conventional spinning-platter HDDs as well as most flash-based SSDs). The protocols…

Sure, but bad block tracking and error correction are pretty different from the implied file/volume awareness I was responding to.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll find that the word "find" doesn't mean "has to search", like one can find their nose in the middle of their face, if one desires. Change the word to "seek" and it may make more sense.

It makes more sense but it's not true for the modern CoW filesystems that I'm familiar with. Those allocate free space in slabs that they write to sequentially.

Also, CoW isn't some kind of magic. There are two meanings I can think of here:

A) When you modify a file, everything including the parts you didn't change is copied to a new location. I don't think this is how btrfs works.

B) Allocated storage is never overwritten, but modifying parts of a file won't copy the unchanged parts. A file's content is composed of a sequence (list or tree) of extents (contiguous, variable-length runs of 1 or more blocks) and if you change part of the file, you first create a new disconnected extent somewhere and write to that. Then, when you're done writing, the file's existing extent limits are resized so that the portion you changed is carved out, and finally the sequence of extents is set to {old part before your change}, {your change}, {old part after your change}. This leaves behind an orphaned extent, containing the old content of the part you changed, which is now free. From what evidence I can quickly gather, this is how btrfs works.

Compared to an ordinary file system, where changes that don't increase the size of a file are written directly to the original blocks, it should be fairly obvious that strategy (B) results in more fragmentation, since both appending to and simply modifying a file causes a new allocation, and the latter leaves a new hole behind.

While strategy (A) with contiguous allocation could eliminate internal (file) fragmentation, it would also be much more sensitive to external (free space) fragmentation, requiring lots of spare capacity and/or frequent defrag.

Either way, the use of CoW means you need more spare capacity, not less. It's designed to allow more work to be done in parallel, as fits modern hardware and software better, under the assumption that there's also ample amounts of extra space to work with. Denying it that extra space is going to make it suffer worse than a non-CoW file system would.

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