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An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

theaiunderwriter.substack.com

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Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#361

Post by trentlott »

belorn wrote: post #182
ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care for this line of argument. It's like saying you can't hold a position that trespassing should be illegal while also holding that commercial businesses should be legally required to have public restrooms. Yes, both of these positions are related to land rights and the former is pro- while the latter is anti-, but it's a perfectly coherent set of positions. OpenAI can absolutely be anti-copyright in the se…

The example you gave with public restroom do not work because of two main concept: They are usually getting paid for it by the government, and operating a company usually holds benefits given by the government. Industry regulations as a concept is generally justified in that industry are getting "something" from society, and thus society can put in requirements in return. A regulation that require restaurants to have…

But what if businesses got benefits from society and tax money and were free to ignore the needs/desires of those who pay taxes and who society consists of? That seems just about right.

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#362

Post by alphan0n »

skydhash wrote: post #355
alphan0n wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are responsible for the output, just like any other tool. If I use a copy machine to reproduce your copyrighted work, I am responsible for that infringement not Xerox. If I coax your novel out of my phones keyboard suggestion engine letter by letter, and publish it, it’s still me infringing on your copyright. If I make a copy of your clip art in Illustratator, is Adobe responsible? Etc.

The analogies fail because the copyrighted material were not used for creating the copy machine, Illustration, or (maybe?) the keyboard suggestion engine. If LLMs were produced ethically, then the whole discussion is moot. But if the only way to produce copyrighted material requires being trained on copyrighted material, then...

Copyright law applies to distribution of output, not input.

An artist, writer, whoever, could read all the copyrighted material in the world, even pirated material, unless their output is a copy or copyrighted artifact, then there is no infringement.

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#363

Post by codedokode »

slidehero wrote: post #177
TremendousJudge wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the exception they are asking for (we can train on copyrighted material and the image produced is non-copyright infringing) is copyright infringing in the most basic sense. I'll prove it by induction: Imagine that I have a service where I "train" a model on a single image of Indiana Jones. Now you prompt it, and my model "generates" the same image. I sell you this service, and no money goes to the copyright holde…

>There's no reason why training on a billion images is any different You gloss over this as if it's a given. I don't agree. I think you're doing a different thing when you're sampling billions of things equallly.

The root problem is that the model reproduces Indiana Jones instead of creating a new character. This contradicts the statement that the model "learns" and "creates" like a human artist and not merely copies; obviously a human artist would not plagiarize when asked to draw a character.

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#364

Post by dcow »

card_zero wrote: post #354
dcow wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and notably the source recipe can’t be copyrighted. Trade secrets and recipes are not copyrightable. That’s the point. We have entire vastly profitable industries built around protection of trade secrets, with no copyright in play. Competing to make make the best cola flavored beverage or the best burrito is a thing . Competing to make the best rendition of Snow White, is not . What’s the rub? They don’t seem th…

Snow White is not the best example, there are non-Disney versions, like the one with Sigourney Weaver and the one with Chris Hemsworth.

I imagine they're licensed--the original creator or their estate had to be looped in to make them happen, and probably financially benefitted.

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#365

Post by Kim_Bruning »

asadotzler wrote: post #278
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #213

Here's a question. What if I want to prompt: "An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip, make sure it is NOT Indiana Jones." One way or another, you (and the model) do need to know who Indiana Jones is. After that, the moral and legal choices of whether to generate the image, and what to do with it, are all yours. And we might not agree on what that is, but you do get the choice

If the AI company sells it to you, no matter your prompting, they are stealing. If you also sell that work, then so are you.

You are writing a conclusion without providing reasons or feelings.

Are you able to link to or write out your reasoning (however concisely?).

Is your view here legal, ethical, and/or vibes based? Each can can be interesting!

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#366

Post by loki-ai »

narcraft wrote: post #353
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that one day you may wish to author a creative work and derive financial benefit from that labor. There is legitimate use for limited time ownership of reproducible cultural artifacts. Extending that to 95 years is the problem.

I wish to one day derive financial benefit from hitting myself with a hammer for 8 hours a day. Should we construct a legal apparatus to guarantee that I am able to do so? Edit: the point I want to illustrate is that we do not get to choose what others value, or to dictate what is scarce and no one is entitled to make a living in a specific way even if they really want to

It is bad analogy specially because we value that so much that we are even discussing on how to have more of it.

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#367

Post by nradov »

dcow wrote: post #328
nradov wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one needs an avatar. You can draw a stick figure or take a selfie or whatever. This is all so silly and trivial.

Consider consulting documentation then. A model can help sift through orders of magnitude more literature than you can in the same timeframe.

OK? What does that have to do with pop culture IP rights?

If you're building an LLM for management or technical consulting then the valuable content is locked up behind corporate firewalls anyway so you're going to have to pay to use it. In that field most of what you could find with a web crawler or in digital books is already outdated and effectively worthless.

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#368

Post by Kim_Bruning »

darioush wrote: post #303
tastyface wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A different way of looking at it: AI, by design, defaults to regurgitating the poppiest of pop culture content. Every whip-wielding archaeologist is now Harrison Ford. Every suave British spy is now Daniel Craig. With the power of AI, creativity is dead and buried.

don't you think it is empowering and aspiring for artists? they can try several drafts of their work instantaneously, checking out various compositions etc before even starting the manual art process. they could even input/train it on their own work. I don't think someone can use AI to copy your art better than the original artist. Plus art is about provenance. If we could find a scrap piece of paper with some scribb…

This does seem to work for writing. Feed your own writing back in and try variations / quickly sketch out alternate plots, that sort of thing.

Then go back and refine.

Treat it the same as programming. Don't tell the AI to just make something and hope it magically does it as a one-shot. Iterate, combine with other techniques, make something that is truly your own.

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#369

Post by philistine »

alphan0n wrote: post #362
skydhash wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogies fail because the copyrighted material were not used for creating the copy machine, Illustration, or (maybe?) the keyboard suggestion engine. If LLMs were produced ethically, then the whole discussion is moot. But if the only way to produce copyrighted material requires being trained on copyrighted material, then...

Copyright law applies to distribution of output, not input. An artist, writer, whoever, could read all the copyrighted material in the world, even pirated material, unless their output is a copy or copyrighted artifact, then there is no infringement.

> even pirated material

If you knowingly use pirated content for any purpose, that's not legal.

Re: An image of an archeologist adventurer who wears a hat and uses a bullwhip

#370

Post by nradov »

codedokode wrote: post #331
echelon wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original claim is false, > intellectual property [...] used over and over again, primarily by the rich and powerful, to stifle original ideas and hold back cultural innovation. There's nothing about IP which prevents you from creating your own. There are, in fact, a near infinite number of things you can create. More things than there exist stars in our galaxy. The problem with ideas is that they have to be good.…

> The problem with ideas is that they have to be good. No they don't, look at music popular in social networks. > and now creation will be (relatively) easy. More taste makers will be slinging content and we'll wind up in a land of abundance. Even before the generative AI, I think we live in the era where there are more creators than ever in history: everybody today can publish their music or art without any large in…

Pianos are already cheap. You can get used pianos for very little money if you shop around. No one has space to keep a piano in their house anymore, and they don't want to deal with keeping them tuned.
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