Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 695 posts

Re: The Burnout Machine

#361

Post by wegfawefgawefg »

roncesvalles wrote: post #279
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

In my experience as a software engineer rounding out 6 years now, what I have observed in myself and others is that the work pressure that leads to burnout in SWEs is largely self-imposed. I have some conjectures as to why that may be: 1. High variability of pay, not only between companies but within companies. As a SWE your total compensation can be expected to double every two promotions, and promotions can be pret…

this doesnt apply to 90% of programming jobs so im not so sure the money growth expectation disilusion angle is right.

I generally assume it is due to lack of agency.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#362

Post by hirvi74 »

blinded wrote: post #211
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

1000% this. My partner is in the medical field, the absurd schedule they put up with and the amount they are required to work when tired is the worst. Some close friends do contracting / construction, it takes a tole on their bodies. People that take above senior level roles or "FANG" jobs should expect to grind.

I feel like being a dev has taken a toll on my body in the opposite direction ---- "use it or lose it."

Perhaps it's because my brain is full of software issues itself, but I don't have enough energy nor motivation before/after work to do anything else. Luckily, I am somehow healthy-ish in terms of medical metrics, but I know at my current trajectory, I won't be able to sustain it for many more years.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#363

Post by wegfawefgawefg »

jacobgkau wrote: post #194
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

My initial reaction to this whole thing was the same as yours (not that I have any love lost for academics). Software engineers do basically no physical labor and usually get paid better than many people who physically work way harder. On the whole, software engineers are not "the victim," as you said. However, your examples made me think. > In other places, you can have a typical 40h/week job at a salary way better…

as a once remote cottage guy, yes you can have internet. kids love it out there. you bring your friends.

its better out there man. i miss it.

I was waking up with no alarm to blue sky and chirping birds, and then I could read papers and to pytorch all day. Never heard a car.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#364

Post by dasil003 »

roncesvalles wrote: post #279
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

In my experience as a software engineer rounding out 6 years now, what I have observed in myself and others is that the work pressure that leads to burnout in SWEs is largely self-imposed. I have some conjectures as to why that may be: 1. High variability of pay, not only between companies but within companies. As a SWE your total compensation can be expected to double every two promotions, and promotions can be pret…

With 25 years experience, the other thing is environments vary a lot, even within a single company. Things can be dysfunctional for lots of reasons, sometimes due to individual incompetence at various points in the hierarchy, or just systemic/cultural issues that no one has the vision or influence to identify and fix. When you're young and inexperienced, but technically brilliant, it's easy to miss the forest for the trees of what's really going on on the human side of things of any large group effort.

One of the things I value the most about working at startups in my early career is that it allows relatively "junior" folks more exposure to the big picture, and thus stay grounded in reality and not swayed by all the random narratives that are floated around in the corporate world. No matter how smart you are, or how honest and well intentioned the intent of the speaker, it takes experience to be able to parse through these and understand when and how they are relevant to your individual work. I see a lot of folks over the last 15 years who got hired into big tech during boom times, never got anywhere near the critical path of the business, and were exposed to all manner dysfunction by ambitious but incompetent social climbers who swelled the ranks of anything with the whiff of success. In these types of environment, people who just want to do good software engineering work can easily get swept into various dead end buckets of learned helpless, rest-and-vest, burnout, etc.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#365

Post by hirvi74 »

nyarlathotep_ wrote: post #313
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

I don't think this rings true anymore for a lot of people, even those with "good experience." It's a lot harder to even get interviews now--I'm one of several people in my social circle that are having difficulty even getting interviews with referrals. Projecting forward, things looks worse than the present and far worse than the past.

Nothing good last forever. Not saying things won't eventually improve, but hey, maybe they won't?

Still, I think a lot of people treat being a dev as more of an identity than a career. Those with such identities will have a harder time adjusting.

Personally, I like to create and build things. I will try to continue to do so, if not as a dev, then as some other profession.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#366

Post by Henchman21 »

busterarm wrote: post #295
Henchman21 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No worries on that front: I grew up dirt poor. Now I’m at a well known HFT firm. I know this quite well. I absolutely don’t belong. Edit to add: I’m never allowed to forget that I don’t belong.

Had the same experience at an extremely well known hedge fund. Good luck and keep your head down, but also once you get to a comfortable position, find a good exit. There are better environments and finance isn't at the top of the pay pyramid anymore.

Not sure why this would get downvoted?

Appreciate the advice! Glad to know my plan is sane :)

Re: The Burnout Machine

#367

Post by whoisthemachine »

rockemsockem wrote: post #324
whoisthemachine wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistent educational standards leads to a common shared understanding of what knowledge and training your engineering colleagues have. This also makes it easier right off the bat for an employer to know what a "junior" engineer is - and leads to more consistent experience levels afterwards. And you didn't quite mix it up, a degree from an ABET accredited school is required to get your professional engineering certi…

I think there's still a lot of inconsistency and judgement that happens for gauging whether someone is junior and for what skills they might have. Many software engineers don't have CS degrees at all and even more have ones from different countries. I am unable to find concrete numbers on this, but I would bet that the majority of employed engineers in the US do not carry a professional engineering certification.

I don't argue with your point regarding how many engineers have their PE. I don't have mine.

My point is that accreditation boards and trade unions can help set standard minimums of what an engineer (or trades person) will know going into a job. Of course employers can ignore them, but in general those standards help bring consistent expectations to a given trade.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#368

Post by hirvi74 »

Minor49er wrote: post #235
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

> Or take a gap year to regenerate, or reinvent, yourself. I'm curious about people who have done this and how they've handled things like insurance, taxes, and getting back into the workforce after such a long gap. It seems like a big risk since there's no guarantee of employment. I'd also imagine having a long break would be looked on unfavorably by interviewers and make it harder to get back in

I've never taken a gap year, but all I will say is that there is also a risk to remaining in one's comfort.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#369

Post by __loam »

daedrdev wrote: post #207
__loam wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet they're so massive that them all doing layoffs at the same time despite that profitability has a huge impact on the labor market of the while industry.

If someone produces less effort than they cost, it's reasonable to fire them even if the organization as a whole is profitable. That's probably not what the FAANG companies did, but layoffs are not unjustifiable for profitable companies.

We're not talking about performance terminations here.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#370

Post by __loam »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #133
lr4444lr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a fairly progressive news outlet attracting staff with certain sensibilties in the NYC area and selling views to people who are the same, the NYTimes board of directors has a vested PR interest in tolerating unions with the large amounts money they have to pay for the privilege. I'm not convinced the company is better served by unionized employees over the rest of the tech scene, which has to innovate to stay solv…

Sounds plausible, but that hypothesis is ultimately belied by the the NYT's actual stance toward their unions (which is hostile): https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/feb/01/leaked-message... > The National Labor Relations Board rejected the New York Times’ attempt to stop the election, alleging the bargaining unit was improper. The company had previously declined to voluntarily recognize the union and immediately…

He forgot the neo when he called the times a liberal institution.
Post reply on HN