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String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

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Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#361

Post by zozbot234 »

rexpop wrote: post #356
EA-3167 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably true, but the larger issue is that we're unlikely to redefine society in the name of making less than 1% of the population feel better. The US has struggled for centuries with the question of how to better treat far more number minorities, such as black people... and women. At some point the, "change society" approach is bound to create backlash that such a small movement can't sustain, and frankly we…

> we're unlikely to redefine society in the name of making less than 1% of the population feel better Believe it or not, there are actually many popular, far-reaching political ideologies centered around helping "the least of us." It's not such a foreign concept. Furthermore, the particular ways in which the transgender population is oppressed happen to coincide with many of the ways in which cis women are infamously…

> Furthermore, the particular ways in which the transgender population is oppressed happen to coincide with many of the ways in which cis women are infamously burdened. It's not "special treatment" that will make this It's worth noting that a number of cis women who associate with the feminist movement would strongly disagree with your assessment.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#362

Post by Aurornis »

rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

> 3) Its leadership - or some of it, anyway - is extremely egotistical and borderline cult-like to begin with

I'm always surprised at how common this is in rationalist and EA organizations. The revelations about the cult-like behavior at MIRI / CFAR / Leverage are eye-opening: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/MnFqyPLqbiKL8nSR7/my-experie...

The issues with sexual misconduct and drug-assisted assault in these communities even made the mainstream news: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-03-07/effective...

It's equally fascinating to see how effectively these issues are rapidly retconned out of the rationalist discourse. Many of these leaders and organizations who get outed were respected and frequently discussed prior to the revelations, but afterward they're discussed as an inconsequential sideshow.

> TLDR: isolation, very strong in-group defenses, logical "doctrine" that is formally valid and leaks in hard-to-notice ways, apocalyptic utility-scale, and being a very appealing environment for the kind of person who goes super nuts -> pretty much perfect conditions for a cult.

I still think cults are a rare outcome. More often, I've seen people become "rationalist" because it gives them tools to amplify their pre-existing beliefs (#4 in your list). They link up with other like-minded people in similar rationalist communities which further strengthens their belief that they are not only correct, but they are systematically more correct than anyone who disagrees with them.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#363

Post by spacebear »

nkurz wrote: post #49

Most of the news coverage I've seen of this story is omitting what some might consider a relevant detail: almost all the members of this group are trans. This is a divisive topic, but failing to mention this makes me worry a story is pushing a particular agenda rather than trying to tell the facts. Here's what the story looks like if the trans activism is considered central to the story: https://thepostmillennial.com…

They’re also all software developers, right?

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#364

Post by adzm »

nejsjsjsbsb wrote: post #349
dgfitz wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet trump is president.

Why Trump won is an interesting topic. There is a mixture of reasons but I think high up there was Biden pulling out last minute and Kamala being unpopular with little time to do a campaign. She also had the backfoot of having been in power while there was inflation and support for the Gaza genocide. Therefore Trump won less then Kamala lost. There is a subreddit dedicate to people both democrats who refused to vote,…

Suck eggs?! Not all of us are making silicon valley wages and can afford such a decadent activity!

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#365

Post by EA-3167 »

rexpop wrote: post #356
EA-3167 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably true, but the larger issue is that we're unlikely to redefine society in the name of making less than 1% of the population feel better. The US has struggled for centuries with the question of how to better treat far more number minorities, such as black people... and women. At some point the, "change society" approach is bound to create backlash that such a small movement can't sustain, and frankly we…

> we're unlikely to redefine society in the name of making less than 1% of the population feel better Believe it or not, there are actually many popular, far-reaching political ideologies centered around helping "the least of us." It's not such a foreign concept. Furthermore, the particular ways in which the transgender population is oppressed happen to coincide with many of the ways in which cis women are infamously…

Those ideologies certainly exist, but I can't say that I've ever heard of one staying in power for very long, at least not while genuinely pursuing that ideology. Far more often "for the least of us" is the pitch that gets you in the door, but no real attempt to deliver is ever made.

So again, I'm not debating the value of pursuing these rights, I'm pointing out that this is view opposed by billions. You can't just declare the rightness of your cause and hope it catches on.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#366

Post by tbrownaw »

nkurz wrote: post #49

Most of the news coverage I've seen of this story is omitting what some might consider a relevant detail: almost all the members of this group are trans. This is a divisive topic, but failing to mention this makes me worry a story is pushing a particular agenda rather than trying to tell the facts. Here's what the story looks like if the trans activism is considered central to the story: https://thepostmillennial.com…

> omitting what some might consider a relevant detail

This sounds weaselly enough to detract from the rest of the comment, even though you later say why it might be relevant.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#367

Post by paradox460 »

ben_w wrote: post #210
Aurornis wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Weird to see a community I followed show up so close to home and negatively like this. I had some coworkers who were really into LessWrong and rationality. I thought it was fun to read some of the selected writings they would share, but I always felt that online rationalist communities collected a lot of people with reactionary, fascist, misogynistic, and far-right tendencies. There’s a heavily sanitized version of…

I have had some rather… negative vibes, for lack of a better term, from some of the American bits I've encountered online; but for what it's worth, I've not seen what you described in the German community. There is, ironically, no escape from two facts that was well advertised at the start: (1) the easiest person for anyone to fool is themselves, and (2) politics is the mind-killer. With no outwardly visible irony, t…

Politics aren't the mind killer, fear is. Politics just use fear to achieve their ends

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#368

Post by gerdesj »

all2 wrote: post #322
sterlind wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's been an exhausting couple of weeks for me, as a trans person. one executive order after another, explicitly attacking us. scrambling to update all my documents, navigating a Kafkaesque bureaucracy with constantly shifting rules. now this. there are like six Zizians. there are millions of trans people. I'm sure that many of the Zizians being trans says something about the Ziz cult, but Ziz doesn't say anything ab…

> any evil one trans person does, is used to stain all trans people. recognize this tendency; don't let this become like blood libel. As a Christian, I can empathize. The wrongs and hypocrisies of so many are heaped on those who have no relation to the actions.

I don't think that you need to be a Christian to empathise with anyone. The big geezer's (JC) teachings imply to me that keeping quiet about your faith and simply doing good (for a given value of good) is the Way.

Declaring a religion might rile someone, before you have even engaged. I suggest that you simply proffer a hand. Empathise as best you can. Be careful.

At best, with mentioning religion, you have declared your rightful intentions and at worst you have added yet another layer of tribalism to a ... debate.

I'm pretty sure that at least the synoptic gospels and probably John too (for the full set) tell you to keep it quiet. There is no need to put your religious heart on your sleeve - that's between you and God.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#369

Post by thrance »

notjoemama wrote: post #358
dgfitz wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet trump is president.

I follow the thread and can agree in large parts. But given multiple news anchors, news programs, both traditional and online, in combination with social media, content creators and late night TV, I am wholly exhausted by Trump somehow being a magical monster responsible for (just as you’ve demonstrated) in some way every ill in modern society. If he is a narcissist and we are aware narcissists feed on attention and…

The guy is passing budgetary laws without congress, has been made untouchable by the supreme court, pardoned the violent Jan 6 rioters (despite claiming to be "pro-order"), constantly scape-goats minorites and leftists, threatens war with allies, colludes with foreign fascists, is doing a thousand illegal sh*t a minute, but somehow this is no big deal and we should just ignore it.

Scrutiny and accountability for this systematic dismantling of our democracy is the only sane thing to do. You're either very blind to the gravity of the situation or extremely dishonest.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#370

Post by mcguire »

zozbot234 wrote: post #323
snickerbockers wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering if it's relevant that so many of them are young people with "data science" degrees and they call themselves "rationalists". Sounds like they have some sort of superiority complex that might make them more susceptible to justifying acts of violence when it's "rational".

> "rationalists". Sounds like they have some sort of superiority complex Oh yes, this is totally a thing. They're also weirdly obsessed with I.Q. comparisons. They're the kind of community where you might actually witness someone talking about "High I.Q." and "Low I.Q." individuals - and making a claim like "my I.Q. is one of the highest", way before someone else made that cool.

So, like Hacker News?
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