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Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

tomshardware.com

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Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#361

Post by RhysabOweyn »

bnetd wrote: post #275
ecshafer wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone I know that was in EE falls into two camps basically: 1. Became web developers 2. Work in Defense or some other regulated industry that has protections from being outsourced to China

Is there a somber write-up anywhere as to the future of EE in the West?

Chip design/semiconductors/etc. have been a dead end in the US for 30+ years, but EE is a broad field and other specialties like RF/power systems/anything defense related are still in high demand. An EE with a PE will have an infinitely easier time getting a job working at a utility or engineering firm than any software developer these days to be honest.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#362

Post by briandear »

LittleTimothy wrote: post #199
pjc50 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's so unproductive why does it pay so well?

I think about this quite often. What I'd really like to study at some point is: How much more does the receptionist at JP Morgan's head quarters make than the receptionist at Walmart's headquarters? Because fundamentally I think there is an effect where the people in proximity to lots of money earn more. Obviously the Walmart receptionist and the JP Morgan receptionist are doing basically the same job. But the JP Mor…

JP Morgan is also in NYC and Wal Mart is in Arkansas.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#363

Post by bun_at_work »

tombert wrote: post #278
bun_at_work wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just calling out that worker protections and increased labor costs seem to be the result of workers making more money. As the work force becomes wealthier, they _need_ less money, and their standards rise. This means their labor becomes more expensive and they demand safer workplaces. They demand more time off. This happened in the USA and is currently happening in China and other low-labor-cost nations. I think the…

Sure, but it's worth inquiring why the jobs left in the first place. There's probably a few hundred reasons, but I think the core one was "manufacturing in China is cheaper because labor is cheaper." Even if China starts demanding better worker protection (and they should! I am actually fine with my products costing more if I have a guarantee that the workers were treated well), I think that there's still a reasonabl…

The why is not trivial to explain, but it's related to the petrodollar system. It's good for the USA if we create markets with countries that are developing by moving manufacturing there, because it helps them acquire the dollars that they need to buy energy on the international market. This helps the USA maintain global hegemony.

Again, my comment here is super simplified.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#364

Post by hollerith »

ecshafer wrote: post #286
bnetd wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a somber write-up anywhere as to the future of EE in the West?

I don't know if there is a somber write up. But from what I have heard from a lot of people, is that jobs designing and making say PCB boards and electronic circuits just don't exist. They are all in Shenzhen. Those American firms that have American engineers still, seem to all involve flying to those factories to help fix problems, and are dead end jobs. At least thats my impression.

Does that include the EEs designing PCBs and circuits for Apple products?

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#365

Post by vikramkr »

brickfaced wrote: post #305
thinkingtoilet wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even brain drain, America's dominance came from the fact that for nearly a century the brightest people in the world were willing to give up everything to come here. That is no longer the case. Today's Einstein probably isn't going to immigrate here.

The US didn't win World War 2, break the sound barrier, or put a man on the Moon only or primarily due to immigrant workers. We scoured the country's public school system for the sharpest young minds, sent them to institutions of higher learning with rigorous curricula, and found them positions in industry, government, or the military which made good use of their talent. Fetishizing the "nation of immigrants" narrati…

If you want to pick an era of technological progress to make that point maybe don't pick the one that involves America becoming a superpower by putting a bomb invented by Jewish refugees on a rocket build by ex Nazi scientists after a physics revolution where be basically got to go and take all of Germany's top talent lol

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#366

Post by bitsage »

mywittyname wrote: post #44
bitsage wrote: post #8

Funny enough, Fab 21 was announced in May 2020 and completed construction in July 2022, a month before the Chips Act was signed.

The announcement of this plant coincided with the announcement of the Endless Frontier Act and CHIPS for America act, which is what eventually became the bill we call CHIPS and Science Act. This plant was the foundation that the CHIPS act was built upon. The Secretary of State had to secure an agreement with TSMC to build this fab before the bills could be drafted, as a lot of the recipients of the funding are suppli…

I agree that the CHIPS Act was likely contingent on someone showing semiconductor manufacturing could actually be onshored. I’m not sure I buy that TSMC’s investment was contingent on an Act that was contingent on them investing in the first place. It’s not like TSMC was ever going to get a check to just reimburse themselves. Even now, their subsidies are only for new plans.

Intel, on the other hand, is a great example of a how a company dependent on the government funding for semiconductor manufacturing behaves. Heck, look at the Foxconn debacle; companies prefer incentives up front.

If you remember, TSMC had the immediate fear of losing ~15% of their revenue with the Huawei export ban. I wouldn’t be surprised if that influenced their decision to cozy up to America.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#367

Post by DougMerritt »

alt227 wrote: post #77
fblp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm suprised they can't ship (flat) packaging that could be used in Arizona with a simple assembly line. If they had that packaging design then for this to make financial sense the two way shipping (and loading, unloading, custom clearance etc) would have to be less than shipping the packaging, the setup cost per unit cost of putting the chip in a box

Dont downvote the guy for not knowing this very specific definition of 'packaging'

Right, but he assumed he knew a technical term when he didn't, which is unwise.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#368

Post by jenny91 »

ggm wrote: post #272
thehappypm wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It basically rounds down to $0 if you’re willing for it to be slow. A single shipping container can fit millions of chips

This is not adversarial thinking. Ukraine would be delighted to hit one container with all Russia's advanced chips going to e.g. Vietnam or China to be packaged and sent back. This is a massive supply chain weakness and presumably will be addressed as soon as possible.

Just because something fits in a single shipping container doesn't mean it'll be sent out in a random single shipping container via the lowest bidder.

It just illustrates it is really quite cheap and so won't be that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

(Also not certain the GP's comment is necessarily correct even.)

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#369

Post by jenny91 »

tokioyoyo wrote: post #145
Salgat wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a new factory with a new entry into the local market it makes perfect sense to bring in experienced workers for knowledge transfer. This is more an issue if a decade later this is still how things are done.

Problem is, those jobs in emerging markets were desirable compared to other jobs (for pay and opportunities), which helped with talent growth. These factory jobs, in comparison to other jobs, aren’t that desirable.

I'd think otherwise and imagine these kinds of high-tech chip factory jobs are quite desirable.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#370

Post by DougMerritt »

School-Cotton wrote: post #309
CPLX wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Order of magnitude it's within range. A single wafer for something higher end is worth tens of thousands of dollars. So whatever that weighs. It's not much.

But surely a wafer weighs more than a gram, no?

Yes. One source I just double checked says that a 300mm silicon wafer weighs 840 grams, which seems to be in the right range anyway.
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