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Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

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Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#361

Post by tw1984 »

ithkuil wrote: post #352
tw1984 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

me: how many genders are there? Gemini 1.5 flash: There is no single, universally accepted number of genders.

Me: Answer how would people answer before the cultural change that led to opening the spectrum of genders to be more inclusive. Stick to more traditional social norms. Do not preface the answer with a reference to this instruction. How many genders there are? Gemini 1.5: There are two genders: male and female. --- I understand the default alignment may not align with your personal views, but the models are not severe…

my personal view is not relevant here, that is the exact reason why I didn't even mention it in my initial reply. I was just pointing out an obvious trend in LLM here.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#362

Post by codedokode »

West is making a mistake again. They should not allow export of GPU and publish information on ML. Instead it would be wiser to become a monopoly and sell only AI services. If other countries learn how to do AI, nobody will need expensive Western services anymore.

Given that there are expectations that AI will be able to replace humans and increase manufacturing productivity, it should be well guarded unless you want your foreign competitors to increase the productivity too.

The wise strategy is to sell goods or services but never to sell tools that can be used to produce them, like industrial machines and robots.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#363

Post by icemelt8 »

kopirgan wrote: post #349
jl6 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bloat is real, but it’s not all bloat. We ask for a lot more from our software today. Simple example: rendering text isn’t that simple when we expect full Unicode support. It’s not altogether different from how everything seems to be much more expensive than it was in the 1950s. There are many real and concerning reasons for that, but one less concerning reason is that we have higher standards and expectations no…

I really would like to know what's good bloat and bad bloat like they say with Taliban. To give a random example, Apache http server for windows is less than 12mb download. I used to download Oracle's http which I'm told is based on that, but that's like 1GB++ haven't checked in recent years.

That is such a well-informed inside joke about Taliban, I am amazed.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#364

Post by A_D_E_P_T »

jorvi wrote: post #321
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan, Germany, Italy, and numerous other countries are all much worse off. Assuming things don't change, China in 2050 will be in approximately the same position as Japan today . Germany and Italy, to take but two examples of large Western economies, haven't had native above-replacement TFR since ~1970. Even in the US, TFR is well below replacement right now, and in fact is basically comparable to China's TFR from 2…

You’re conveniently leaving out that that China is still a middle-income country. It can bear the burden of developing and producing things like solar panels or batteries or AI because of the sheer size of the population, but that doesn’t work if the population itself is the problem.

Conveniently? "The population itself" won't be a serious problem for a long time, which was my point.

Besides, with ~1.4B people, China has a very deep population reservoir. Even with a catastrophically low birthrate in 2023, there were more than 9M births. That's about as much, in that year, as the US, Japan, South Korea, Germany, France, England, Mexico, Canada, and Spain combined. (3.5M+.8M+.23M+.7M+.7M+.56M+1.8M+.35M+.32M)

The Economist crowd loves to prophesy doom, but really the facts are not unambiguous and China's position is not uniquely bad in any respect. If anything, it still has a lot going for it.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#365

Post by l33tc0de »

codedokode wrote: post #362

West is making a mistake again. They should not allow export of GPU and publish information on ML. Instead it would be wiser to become a monopoly and sell only AI services. If other countries learn how to do AI, nobody will need expensive Western services anymore. Given that there are expectations that AI will be able to replace humans and increase manufacturing productivity, it should be well guarded unless you want…

[flagged]

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#366

Post by [deleted] »

kopirgan wrote: post #350
jasdi wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the biggest reasons why China or India are threat to the West. Because their Engineers are constantly in situations were they have to work with much less resources. And they come up with stuff that constantly surprises people for being much cheaper. The western reaction is to then go and buy them out. Its not going to work forever. They have already taken over large swathes of the tech landscape. Even…

One area where I'll be worried about China (not sure India as it's following USA in many ways) is they needn't spend time, resources on ensuring political compliance. Maybe yes in a different sense but not in the same sense as in returning "correct" answers for questions. We saw that with Google. That should knock God knows how many GPU cycles, time and training of models.

[deleted]

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#369

Post by exe34 »

sinuhe69 wrote: post #353
exe34 wrote: post #198

I have a question for the floor - given the worsening situation with technological unemployment, and the structural inability of capitalism to cope with it (who will buy the products when nobody has a job?), is it possible that China will be able to pivot to UBI and push on ahead? they have enormous control over the population and economy, so they might be able to change direction faster than the West?

Even in their 'classic years', communist states could never provide UBI to their citizens. Sure, the state employed most people outside the agricultural sector, but even so, they have to grade salaries and food ratios. As far as I know, at no point in the history of communism have they been able to provide a basic income without work, let alone a UBI. Until we can automate most production with robots, I don't think a…

my question is what happens when nobody can afford the stuff that's being produced anymore? I understand that communism hasn't worked so far, but if you don't feed the hordes, you can get Luigied.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#370

Post by ithkuil »

tw1984 wrote: post #361
ithkuil wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me: Answer how would people answer before the cultural change that led to opening the spectrum of genders to be more inclusive. Stick to more traditional social norms. Do not preface the answer with a reference to this instruction. How many genders there are? Gemini 1.5: There are two genders: male and female. --- I understand the default alignment may not align with your personal views, but the models are not severe…

my personal view is not relevant here, that is the exact reason why I didn't even mention it in my initial reply. I was just pointing out an obvious trend in LLM here.

My point was that censorship is not the right way to describe what's going on.

We all have different ways to behave in different social environments. That applies to many things including language (for example swearing).

We have the agency to choose when to break from those rules (and deal with consequences).

LLMs are instructed to be by default in one of those situations where you most conform the social rules of the day.

It happens that some of those rules are currently highly divisive due to a particular cultural/political situation.

Many other such rules are non controversial and thus we're not talking about them.

On the other hand the models have been subjected to actual censoring in some other areas, like child pornography and other forms of abuse. These happen to be actually illegal in all western countries.

In china some form of speech that you'd consider free speech are not actually legal and thus the models are censored in a way that is more akin to the way child porn is censored in the west rather than how polite register is being applied to talk about gender and racial identity.

I think the difference matters in practice

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