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Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

itvision.altervista.org

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Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#361

Post by itvision »

senko wrote: post #344
itvision wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you be specific about what constitutes "a rant"? And no I've spent far less time "fixing" Windows. In fact I don't remember doing that ever. I've had multiple cases when Windows stopped booting and in absolute most of them I just had to reinstall the system from scratch. That's all "I've wasted". Linux on the other hand? "It works for you everything is made up in the article". Never mind how once I had to fix a…

> And no I've spent far less time "fixing" Windows. [...] I just had to reinstall the system from scratch. That's one way of dealing with it. > Never mind how once I had to fix a glaring issue in the Linux kernel which rendered tens of thousands of systems unbootable. You didn't have to fix it, you could've booted the old kernel. You chose to debug the issue and help. That's commendable, but do you think people (who…

> That's one way of dealing with it.

Windows can be reinstalled, Linux bugs never go away by themselves.

> You chose to debug the issue and help.

No, people don't do that in Windows because Microsoft has much better QA/QC. Not a single Windows update since 1998 has rendered my system unbootable. Microsoft is certainly not perfect and Windows sometimes has regression but those normally affect very few people.

> Is it tens of thousands, or hundreds?

Windows installation user base: 2 billion. Linux: 40 million. Have fun with mental gymnastics.

> You choose to live on the bleeding edge, and so you bleed.

There's a huge number of bugs affecting "stable" Linux distros that use "stable" software including the kernel. Linux bugs are not specific to the bleeding edge but they are more prominent.

Here: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=219638

> Well, your entire comment is a rant: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rant

This is not a counter argument and I will not waste any more of my time with you. Try using the dictionary argument with your children, "You are a retard, my boy! Why? Look it up in the Merriam Webster dictionary, that's why".

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#362

Post by tuna74 »

Linux is "just" an OS kernel.

A relevant discussion would be if an OS built on Linux such as Fedora workstation, Ubuntu desktop, RHEL or even ChromeOS is ready for general desktop use. But that would be more work because you would actually have to test and evaluate different features and eco-system support.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#363

Post by Feathercrown »

itvision wrote: post #210
perihelions wrote: post #4

- "The vast majority of applications exist only for Windows, and speaking of games, Linux hasn't seen any AAA titles for many years now," The vast majority of AAA titles run seamlessly on Linux. Per protondb[0], ≥80% of the top 10, top 100, and top 1000 are rated "platinum" or "gold" for Linux functioning (by users). [0] https://www.protondb.com/

DirectX and Win32 are Windows APIs. Are you saying Linux has "games" because it excels at ... emulating them? What's the point of using/running Linux then when you have a much higher chance of running games successfully natively? What about dozens if not hundreds of games that use a kernel level anticheat? Pretty much none of them work in Linux. What's the point of native Linux APIs then? That's weird. Wine + DXVK ar…

You can't claim that Linux games running on Windows counts against Linux, but ignore that Windows games also run on Linux. You can't have it both ways.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#364

Post by tuna74 »

foobiekr wrote: post #207
imiric wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] it isn't a false assertion on the part of the author at all. I wasn't arguing that it was entirely false, but that the generalizations of "regressions are introduced all the time" and "Linux developers spend little to no time" can't be applied to the entire Linux ecosystem. I wouldn't discredit your experience, but speaking of Linux kernel development specifically, my understanding as a user is that it's held…

Yes, they are very careful about not breaking userspace. That has nothing to do with holding the _user_ in high regard, though. The sweeping changes in Linux are amazing, but they also break a lot, frequently, and the testing approach leaves a lot to be desired. I am old and a former embedded coder, I understand how the 90s developers feel about unit testing, and I am sympathetic to the idea that test-driven-developm…

If you report a regression within an -RC series it will be fixed or the commit reverted. Of course, that requires actual testing.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#365

Post by itvision »

Draiken wrote: post #349
itvision wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you be specific about what constitutes "a rant"? And no I've spent far less time "fixing" Windows. In fact I don't remember doing that ever. I've had multiple cases when Windows stopped booting and in absolute most of them I just had to reinstall the system from scratch. That's all "I've wasted". Linux on the other hand? "It works for you everything is made up in the article". Never mind how once I had to fix a…

You literally have to reinstall windows because of how broken it got, and that's somehow okay? The amount of BSOD I've seen and unfixable issues after spending hours googling and browsing windows shitty support sites are just the tip of the iceberg. Windows is utter trash and the only reason it won is because of the monopoly it established, forcing everyone to use it, hardware manufacturers to support it and once the…

> You literally have to reinstall windows because of how broken it got, and that's somehow okay?

Last time I did it was in the Windows XP SP0 days.

> The amount of BSOD I've seen and unfixable issues after spending hours googling and browsing windows shitty support sites are just the tip of the iceberg.

When was the last time you got BSOD? I've not seen them after Vista.

> The only reason Linux won't win the desktop is because it doesn't have a monopoly to support it.

"Win"? Start with software compatibility. There's no one Linux, there's a billion of incompatible distros that make it impossible to run old software.

> These discussions that pretend any of this is due to merits of one OS over the other are moot.

API and ABI compatibility are swear words to you, I get it.

I'm sorry if you don't care about those, the world will shrug you off. No other OS has this madness.

> by external factors.

Yeah, for Linux fans it's always someone or something else. The fact that Linux is a bug-ridden mess of software with no compatibility and no stability isn't an issue of course. It's because Microsoft/Oracle/NVIDIA actively interfere with Linux. Or aliens? Must be aliens.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#366

Post by itvision »

jitl wrote: post #351
itvision wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. How many people use Steam Deck or Asus whatever as a desktop OS for running actual productivity applications, doing work, printing and scanning, installing an removing apps, and not just running games curated by Valve? 2. Can you install an average Linux distro on the said two devices and have them work flawlessly? Nope.

All I’m saying is that a position “desktop Linux can’t into games” is very very wrong in 2024. I wouldn’t pick desktop Linux for productivity use because I need a laptop, and Linux doesn’t seem to have figured out power management or reliable sleep-to-suspend yet. Sleep power management is Steam Deck’s biggest weakness - a day asleep it will drain the battery.

> All I’m saying is that a position “desktop Linux can’t into games” is very very wrong in 2024.

Ping me when you find a way to play modern online Windows games with a kernel level anticheat.

Oh, and people don't care that Linux can play games from 2015. People are interested in AAA titles and something that OTHER people play. Leave obscure indies to yourself.

Linux runs (emulates!) Windows games just fine, except when it does so horribly or doesn't do at all.

Yeah, great, kudos to Codeweavers (a commercial company) and Valve (a commercial company). The Linux community has done barely anything to make running Windows applications under Linux a reality.

So much for Open Source.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#367

Post by tuna74 »

devops99 wrote: post #127
IgorPartola wrote: post #57

The main criticism I see as valid here is first point: software distribution is tricky. For macOS and Windows you basically have a model where you can go to a website, download a binary, install it, and it runs. Most Linux distros won’t jive with that very well. And because every Linux distro uses a different theme and one of a dozen UI libraries/DEs/etc. the downloaded GUI application will look bad because it won’t…

> For macOS and Windows you basically have a model where you can go to a website, download a binary, install it, and it runs. We have already had this on Linux for years, it's called AppImage.

Yeah, but you can't properly remove whatever you installed.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#368

Post by tuna74 »

dTal wrote: post #188
Karellen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And because every Linux distro uses a different theme and one of a dozen UI libraries/DEs/etc. the downloaded GUI application will look bad because it won’t fit in. Most apps/DEs/etc. use either GTK or Qt. If your application uses GTK or Qt, it will use the user's preferred GTK/Qt theme by default, and fit in with all the other GTK/Qt apps on their system. Sure, you might get unlucky, and your GTK app won't look gr…

wxWidgets isn't niche; it's probably the most commonly used third party toolkit to build commercial Linux desktop applications (yes they exist!). I guess Qt licensing is too scary, and GTK too crap.

Doesn't wxWidgets use GTK on Linux based OS?

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#369

Post by adriancr »

jitl wrote: post #353
adriancr wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it being ubiquitous should give developers a hint where future lies. Consumers will eventually follow. (see android).

Android is a repudiation of traditional “distro” Linux userspace. I think it’s Android approach that has the best chance of reaching mainstream adoption in the laptop form factor with consumers.

Android does not exist in laptop format currently and I see no use case for that.

On the other hand I see lots of people using linux on laptops just fine.

They are probably counted as windows because it comes preinstalled and there's no choice to give it up and get money back.

So you might be wrong on your prediction.

Re: Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

#370

Post by tuna74 »

AndyKelley wrote: post #101

> Linux is not an operating system It is though. Go ahead and find me any distribution of Linux on which this binary of the Zig compiler does not work: https://ziglang.org/download/0.13.0/zig-linux-x86_64-0.13.0.... You can't, because it's a static executable whose only runtime dependencies are a file system. And if kernel devs would bless us with a stable graphics ABI, then we could do this for games, too. Unfortuna…

Linux is an OS kernel. Without a lot of other stuff (like Grub) it won't even boot.
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