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FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

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Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#361

Post by LorenPechtel »

breadwinner wrote: post #140

This shouldn't be controversial. FTC isn't banning these fees, it is only requiring merchants to disclose the fees. Why would anyone be against that? Another good rule is click-to-cancel. Just a couple of days ago I logged into my Dish Network account to cancel it (after they hiked prices). There is no way to cancel online. There is no way to cancel via chat. You have to call. As soon as you call you're told the wait…

The problem with click-to-cancel is that there should be confirmations built into important cancellations.

But require it to be practical to do online, with no delays and no requirement about when relative to renewals.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#362

Post by tokioyoyo »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #335
tokioyoyo wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because according to Japanese law, in most of the scenarios, the full price, to your best ability, has to be presented to the potential customer. Same goes for Australia, if I recall correctly. No clue about Denmark, I'm sorry. But assuming it's similar over there as well. It's not that NA is the only one susceptible to A/B testing. It's more of a - it's-grey-area-to-illegal to not show full prices outside of NA.

> Because according to Japanese law, in most of the scenarios, the full price, to your best ability, has to be presented to the potential customer. Are you sure? When I shop in Japan, it seems like about 50/50 where they have sales tax included, or not. However, the price tag will be clear if the price includes sales tax or not.

Yes. Source: https://www.nta.go.jp/taxes/shiraberu/taxanswer/shohi/6902.h...

I agree, there are a lot of cases where they don't show the full prices. Especially in the recent years when they've been changing the consumption tax rapidly, and allowing shops to have some leeway. But online prices, almost everywhere, include tax. Even Shopify forces JP merchants to display them while selling in the area.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#363

Post by fooker »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #334
hiatus wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now likely hundreds (or more) of individuals have to not only wait on hold forever, but have to learn the process of and actually go through with filing a small claim? That there is recourse is beside the point when it is mired in bureaucracy (not to mention taking days off to show up to court, etc).

I'm surprised I haven't yet heard of companies who would handle this for you, like there are e.g. for handling the process of getting compensation when an airline screws up scheduling or loses baggage, etc. I'm guessing there isn't enough money to be won there for them to be able to survive off a percentage of it.

A hypothetical company that can do this, would also be capable of handling much more lucrative class action suits.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#364

Post by tokioyoyo »

mulmen wrote: post #305
tokioyoyo wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just put your postal code and it shows all prices according to your municipality, it will be as exact as you can get. Just go to amazon.jp, it should have a text input somewhere for your postal code to calculate the tax. In terms of gaming, hmm… I guess, you could add wrong municipality’s taxes when you show the original price, and switch over at the checkout. But my assumption is that would be deemed illegal, as…

Ok well obviously if you have the address the correct calculation can be made. That’s consistent with the behavior in the US. What is displayed for price before you put in postal code? What price do generic banner or TV ads display?

My guess is approximate (average?) tax. I'm currently outside of Japan, by default Amazon shows me the price in Yen and says it can't deliver to me. When I put down the postal code in Tokyo, shows the same amount. Probably takes the biggest city's tax rate when it can't determine it through geolocation.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#366

Post by BytesAndGears »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #328
khuey wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A rule is proposed to require customers to be able to cancel any subscription on the vendor's website. Except that's not the proposed rule. The way this works in California (and the way the rule the FTC recently published works, I believe) is that a business is required to allow customers to cancel "in the same medium" that they subscribed. That doesn't require anyone to start running a website. The rest of your po…

[flagged]

As-is, it works very well in California. I had never experienced the resistance you imagined during the 3-4 years I lived in California, and regularly cancelled subscriptions that were notoriously hard in other states

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#367

Post by FireBeyond »

tbrownaw wrote: post #325
adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is behind this move? What individuals, and what politicians? By what legal means is this happening? The supreme court. The removal of Chevron Deference this year means that the courts have given themselves huge amounts of power over any administrative decision that isn't specifically regulated by congress (rather than the prior stance which was to presume that agency decisions were reasonable interpretations of…

This is not an accurate description of that decision. Agencies no longer get special privileges in interpreting the scope of what Congress delegated to them. Within the scope of what Congress delegated to them, they still have an much power and discretion as ever.

There was an argument about noncompetes and the FTC in front of a Federal judge recently.

The judge said, "Even as the agency has the power, I don't feel sufficiently convinced by their argument and will block it anyway."

That doesn't sound like they have as much power in their delegated responsibilities if an arbitrary judge says "... and you also have to convince me personally, even though you're entitled to do it."

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#368

Post by mulmen »

tokioyoyo wrote: post #364
mulmen wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok well obviously if you have the address the correct calculation can be made. That’s consistent with the behavior in the US. What is displayed for price before you put in postal code? What price do generic banner or TV ads display?

My guess is approximate (average?) tax. I'm currently outside of Japan, by default Amazon shows me the price in Yen and says it can't deliver to me. When I put down the postal code in Tokyo, shows the same amount. Probably takes the biggest city's tax rate when it can't determine it through geolocation.

What about billboards or banner ads? When an ISP in Japan wants to advertise their service do they include a price on the billboard?

What you describe sounds like the same thing that happens in the US. So what's special about Australia, Japan, and Denmark as you stated earlier?

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#369

Post by tzs »

crazygringo wrote: post #85

I'm glad (if it doesn't get reversed by the next administration). But I'm also baffled... how did this take this long? Why wasn't it done way back when they did it for airline tickets, in 2012?

The House passed a bill [1] earlier this year covering these fees for hotels.

It passed 384 to 25 suggesting there is pretty good bipartisan support for ending such fees at least for hotels. Here was the vote breakdown:

              Yeas  Nays  Not Voting
  Republican   180    25          12
    Democrat   204     0           9
       Total.  284    25          21
[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6543

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#370

Post by LorenPechtel »

jimmaswell wrote: post #271
jfengel wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a move afoot to eliminate all regulations unless they've been specifically passed by Congress. Which is basically incapable of passing anything. Ironically, that inherent dysfunction is the main reason to suspect that won't happen. But politically, every regulation as automatically partisan, even when it has overwhelming support.

> There is a move afoot to eliminate all regulations unless they've been specifically passed by Congress. Which is basically incapable of passing anything. (At least some of) the agencies brought this on themselves with their abuse of the goodwill/benefit of the doubt previously afforded to them. Most flagrant has been the ATF, for one example constantly redefining machine guns or pistol braces, turning millions of c…

Machine guns?

The ATF is simply going on function rather than form. It shoots like a machine gun it is a machine gun no matter what you call it.

That being said, bump stocks are a simple enough concept that banning them is stupid. We should quite our obsession over machine guns--there are few situations where it even matters.

The problem with it going through congress is that it will always be political rather than scientific. The agencies don't do a good job, but a lot of that is because of garbage they are saddled with by congress (think of the machine guns--the basic problem is that the legal and practical definitions are out of sync) and a lot of it is because politics manages to get in anyway.

How about a middle ground: agencies can make rules but they must give their reasoning and supporting evidence--and anyone can challenge such in court. You can't go after the ruling but if you can knock out it's supports it goes away. This would cut both ways--exempt something from a more general ruling and the reason for the exemption can be challenged. (And I'd like to see the same thing for laws.)

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