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The correct amount of ads is zero

manuelmoreale.com

361–370 of 611 posts

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#361

Stances like this probably feel good to write out, but they miss the reality that when running a media business, relying on one revenue stream is dangerous. That’s why newspapers had classified ads, even though they charged a nominal fee to subscribe. People won’t pay $5 a day to subscribe to a newspaper, but the ads subsidize enough of it to make it so that a paid subscription is accessible to more people. On the in…

It is fairly common in a large number of industries that a large part of the valuable portion of the products get subsidized by underhanded "immoral" side of the same industry. A (in)famous example is the practice of paying for expensive ink with excessive anti-customer practices in order to keep the prices of printers low. The printing manufacturers get multiple revenue streams that are more stable over time, and printers become accessible to more people. What is there to not like about it?

The biggest problem is that anti-consumer behavior causes harm. With advertisement it brings disinformation, spying, abuse of the most vulnerable in society, general distrust, are often a crime (scams, fraud, targets children, and usually ignore local advertisement laws), and siphons money to a third party which usually is outside of the country and do not pay taxes. The benefits of anti-consumer behavior are generally not worth the downsides.

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#362

The correct amount of ads is one. As an indie web developer, after trying many "ad policies", I believe the sweet spot (not the revenue optimal spot!) is one ad, clear, not intrusive and highly targetted to your audience. This ad will not annoy readers and will keep your motivation at a decent level (instead of a zero ads policy). My take: https://www.slowernews.com/sponsor

1. not annoy no one

2. neg (annoy no one)

3. neg (neg exist x : annoy(x))

4. exist x : annoy(x)

5. annoy someone

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#363

The correct amount of ads is one. As an indie web developer, after trying many "ad policies", I believe the sweet spot (not the revenue optimal spot!) is one ad, clear, not intrusive and highly targetted to your audience. This ad will not annoy readers and will keep your motivation at a decent level (instead of a zero ads policy). My take: https://www.slowernews.com/sponsor

> and highly targeted to your audience

Just to be clear, are you ruling out user-tracking here, and is this ad meant to be entirely context-based?

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#364

Stances like this probably feel good to write out, but they miss the reality that when running a media business, relying on one revenue stream is dangerous. That’s why newspapers had classified ads, even though they charged a nominal fee to subscribe. People won’t pay $5 a day to subscribe to a newspaper, but the ads subsidize enough of it to make it so that a paid subscription is accessible to more people. On the in…

I've said it before, but I feel like I need to keep saying it: If the people actually using/consuming a product aren't willing to pay the cost required to make/produce said product, then that's probably a good indicator that the product doesn't have enough value to justify its existence. If the Verge can't convince enough people to pay for their output, I'd argue it's not worth keeping around. Advertising ruins the producer/consumer relationship and incentivizes behaviors that disadvantage the consumer and push the producer away from their original purpose. If the Verge wants to diversify income, then they should provide a product that has value to a wider audience.

That doesn't mean that every single person consuming/using the product needs to pay either. Patreon and similar services have proven that if what you make is of high enough quality and provides enough value, it's possible to convince a large enough subset of the consumers to pay enough to cover the costs of production. Especially with online services where the cost difference between producing for 1 person vs 1000 is nearly negligible. The few can, and often do, subsidize the many. And if that changes over time, then the product ceases to be valuable enough to be worth producing and should simply stop being made.

And I'd say this is even true of news and things that people might argue are for the public good. In my opinion, most "news" today isn't actual informative news and doesn't really serve the public. But of the vanishing little left that does, if it informs and educates the citizenry in a way that improves the lives and stability of the country as a whole, and if its natural cost is more than can be reasonably covered by willing consumers, then there's a reasonable argument for covering the cost with taxes. Put sufficient legal barriers between the government funding and the content being produced to prevent government manipulation/propaganda and make sure the press can operate unimpeded. My best idea for such a government funded news source is to write into law that said news source's budget is dependent solely upon country population and country GDP, all staffing decisions are made internally, and leaders are decided by citizen vote, but I'm sure there are other ways people can come up with for maintaining a free but government/tax funded press agency. But ad-funded (of which I think even public radio/tv has effectively become), creates perverse incentives that drive the mission away from actually informing and educating.

People can still pay for tech reviews, or travel advice, talking head current events opinion shows, or whatever news is in its current form if they want. Privately owned/operated press can still exist if it's useful enough for people to find it valuable and worth the cost. But advertising just ruins everything eventually.

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#365

I don’t get why advertisers still advertise. I select brands either by nearest retail box store or by dedicated research into comparative qualities. I don’t watch or listen to any advertising-supported video or audio media. I don’t use personalized or targeted promotion codes. I don’t ever knowingly click on banner/interstitial ads of any kind. Am I still in the minority or has my behavior become more prevalent? (Not…

> I don’t get why advertisers still advertise.

Because it works, and because as usual, HN users confuse their personal experience for being that of the masses when nothing could be further from the truth.

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#366

Stances like this probably feel good to write out, but they miss the reality that when running a media business, relying on one revenue stream is dangerous. That’s why newspapers had classified ads, even though they charged a nominal fee to subscribe. People won’t pay $5 a day to subscribe to a newspaper, but the ads subsidize enough of it to make it so that a paid subscription is accessible to more people. On the in…

Loads of companies out there rely on a single revenue stream. If you sell a single product you get a single revenue stream.

Having a company double dip and concluding that's somehow laudable is absurd.

>People won’t pay $5 a day to subscribe to a newspaper

Because the product isn't delivering $5 worth of perceived value per day. Trying to extract $5 anyway via stuff like this is the wrong answer.

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#367

Stances like this probably feel good to write out, but they miss the reality that when running a media business, relying on one revenue stream is dangerous. That’s why newspapers had classified ads, even though they charged a nominal fee to subscribe. People won’t pay $5 a day to subscribe to a newspaper, but the ads subsidize enough of it to make it so that a paid subscription is accessible to more people. On the in…

"Less ads" is the easy way to describe what they're offering, but I believe what they're doing is not just 50% less ad spots, but rather paying will remove all third party ad networks from the site, leaving first party ads only.

> we’ll get rid of all the chumboxes and third-party programmatic ads, cut down the overall number of ad units, and only fill what’s left with high-quality ads directly sold by Vox Media

If you think all advertising is immoral, then this probably doesn't do anything for you. However, if you have privacy and performance concerns, this is a big win I think.

Generally I like what the verge does, and I would gladly pay if it included their podcast being ad free. The Verge’s podcast is the only podcast I listen to that I don’t pay for, and it’s full of repeating programmatic ads for crypto companies, sports betting, and cars.

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about implicit vs explicit contracts. Blocking ads on your own device is a breach of an "implicit contract" that the website owner thinks you have with them, but that you've never entered into or even seen, because it's not written out anywhere, it's "assumed". Riding public transit without a ticket is breaching an explicit contract with the transit agency that you entered into when you physically entered th…

Using adblocker on YouTube (for example) is a violation of the ToS, which is not an "implicit contract".

It's still kinda implicit because ToS is not legally binding and not enforceable ("by continuing use, you agree blah blah blah" is just someone covering their asses), and because everything you do happens on your own device, not someone else's property. It's more of a suggestion than a law. The most an online service can do for a ToS violation is to ban your account, if you even have one to begin with.

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#369

Stances like this probably feel good to write out, but they miss the reality that when running a media business, relying on one revenue stream is dangerous. That’s why newspapers had classified ads, even though they charged a nominal fee to subscribe. People won’t pay $5 a day to subscribe to a newspaper, but the ads subsidize enough of it to make it so that a paid subscription is accessible to more people. On the in…

I think you're missing the point. There's a reasonable number of people who are willing to pay for content like this, but only if they actually get an ad-free experience in exchange. The business decision The Verge needs to make is whether they want to try to reach these people or not, since these people won't pay for a model that still has ads. (There could of course be 2 subscription levels at different prices, one…

I think it is not just "ads" but also the character of the ads.

If the ads stay in the boundary areas of the page or well-behaved interstitials that's one thing. In fact, ads can sometimes be interesting and entertaining and most importantly can make markets more competitive bringing you a better variety goods and services.

When they screw up the page, jump around, cover things up, don't have proper controls to "x" them out, use confusing dark patterns, generate fake clicks (ever think it's not an accident that some sites jiggle around so much?), need 50 trackers to be (kinda) sure parties aren't screwing each other, have 20x the bandwidth cost of the content that's something else.

Also there's the content of the ads. There is a subprime tranch that includes Temu but is best represented by prerolls on YouTube that are best advertising sketchy energy drinks and supplements and worse are outright crypto scams. I can see some humor in Temu but not in the scams.

Re: The correct amount of ads is zero

#370

Stances like this probably feel good to write out, but they miss the reality that when running a media business, relying on one revenue stream is dangerous. That’s why newspapers had classified ads, even though they charged a nominal fee to subscribe. People won’t pay $5 a day to subscribe to a newspaper, but the ads subsidize enough of it to make it so that a paid subscription is accessible to more people. On the in…

"Less ads" is the easy way to describe what they're offering, but I believe what they're doing is not just 50% less ad spots, but rather paying will remove all third party ad networks from the site, leaving first party ads only. > we’ll get rid of all the chumboxes and third-party programmatic ads, cut down the overall number of ad units, and only fill what’s left with high-quality ads directly sold by Vox Media If y…

This is a good way to put it. Honestly, it sounds like they have a messaging challenge that they need to solve around this.
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