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Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

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Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#361

Post by pogue »

It would seem wise to potentially add a low dosed anabolic androgenic steroid like Anavar (Oxandrolone) [1] during a course of Ozempic. This would help keep skeletal muscle in tact during a calorie deficient period. A low dose wouldn't be expected to cause much, if any, side effects. But it's something that would be best put through rigorous studies.

But bodybuilders have been using tricks like these for decades (obviously at much more ridiculously high amounts) that work quite successfully for this exact purpose.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxandrolone

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#362

Post by consteval »

MrMcCall wrote: post #271
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like its something against those facts above I’ve seen multiple friends go from eating like shit, including chugging sodas, to not compulsively ordering dessert and no sodas in the house. I think all of them have since quit Ozempic, each seeing some rebound but nothing comprehensive and, most notably to your argument, not in the behaviour modifications.

The only way to lose weight without damaging oneself is to combine more exercise with less eating, which means becoming comfortable being hungry. Yes, it's difficult -- especially after developing bad eating habits over a long time -- but moderation is required in all things. It takes a long time to become overweight, so the ramp down to a leaner existence must necessarily take a significant amount of time, or there'…

> The only way to lose weight without damaging oneself is to combine more exercise with less eating, which means becoming comfortable being hungry

No, not really. Yes, this is how you lose weight, but this is not how you have to be to be a healthy weight.

I'm thin, I don't exercise, and I'm not hungry. I feel great.

I can sit around and jerk myself off about discipline, but the truth is I have none. I have done absolutely nothing to be in this position, it's all luck and factors far beyond my comprehension.

if a drug is able to induce that same feeling in others, I say go for it. It sucks that a normal caloric intake translates to pain, hunger, and constant brain noise for a large segment of the population.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#363

Post by verst »

ben7799 wrote: post #356
lm28469 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our bodies are really good at providing exactly the amount of muscle we need for our daily activities The problem is that the average joe's daily activity is incompatible with an healthy muscle mass. After 30 if you don't actively exercise you lose muscle mass, if you're obese, 50 and starve yourself or take drugs that make you lose more muscles than necessary you won't gain them back ever unless you do some form o…

Some years ago there was a crazy science exhibit going around museums in the US that had human cadavers preserved with some plasticizing process where you could see different tissues. They also had cross sections. They actually had an exhibit showing the effects of obesity on tissues. This was before fat acceptance became a thing. That was really an eye opening exhibit showing shrunken muscle tissue, shrunken hearts,…

I believe you are thinking of 'Body Worlds' [1]

[1]: https://bodyworlds.com/

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#364

Post by ceejayoz »

ben7799 wrote: post #356
lm28469 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our bodies are really good at providing exactly the amount of muscle we need for our daily activities The problem is that the average joe's daily activity is incompatible with an healthy muscle mass. After 30 if you don't actively exercise you lose muscle mass, if you're obese, 50 and starve yourself or take drugs that make you lose more muscles than necessary you won't gain them back ever unless you do some form o…

Some years ago there was a crazy science exhibit going around museums in the US that had human cadavers preserved with some plasticizing process where you could see different tissues. They also had cross sections. They actually had an exhibit showing the effects of obesity on tissues. This was before fat acceptance became a thing. That was really an eye opening exhibit showing shrunken muscle tissue, shrunken hearts,…

You're describing it backwards.

Obesity tends to cause heart enlargement (https://radiopaedia.org/articles/obesity-cardiomyopathy), larger muscles (as you're doing essentially built-in weight training just walking around), and organs don't tend to shink; cross-sections show a pretty similar body cavity (https://www.cultofweird.com/medical/human-body-slices/) - the fat largely goes on top of it.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#365

Post by bityard »

crazygringo wrote: post #281

I'm always so baffled by warnings about losing muscle when losing weight. Of course you do! If your body is tens of pounds lighter, then you don't need the extra muscle to lug it around. This paper is about reduction in heart muscle, and of course your heart doesn't need to be as strong because there's less blood to pump and less tissue to fuel. When you gain weight, you also increase the muscles needed to carry that…

I don't mean to target your comment specifically because it's obvious you know the difference, but I'm continually annoyed by the conflation of fat and muscle as "weight," even by medical professionals who should know better.

We should not be talking about losing "losing weight" as a substitute for saying "losing fat," which is what most people mean. Likewise, when people say they want to "gain weight", they almost always mean they want to "gain muscle."

Why does this matter? Trying to manage one's health or fitness as "weight" gives (most) people the wrong idea about what their weight number represents, and what to do to improve their level of fitness and dial in on the anatomically appropriate amount of body fat. As an example, it's possible (although admittedly unlikely) for one to work hard to gain muscle and strength while reducing body fat and stay exactly the same weight the whole time. Their overall health, fitness, and longevity will be significantly improved but pop fitness will tell them that they haven't made any progress at all.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#366

Post by autoexec »

lenerdenator wrote: post #316

I was wondering when the other shoe would drop. These drugs are turning into a band-aid on the fact that it's more profitable to sell addictive, high-calorie foods in the US than foods that promote long-term health. We'll decay people's heart muscles before we put a tax on unhealthy food to help fund Medicare and Medicaid.

> These drugs are turning into a band-aid on the fact that it's more profitable to sell addictive, high-calorie foods in the US than foods that promote long-term health.

The food is most of it, but it also doesn't help that our environments and society don't allow for as much mobility and exercise as our bodies evolved to expect. You can't force people to sit in a chair for 8-10+ hours a day staring at screens and then be surprised when a bunch of them are unhealthy. It's more profitable if you ignore people's health and keep them in place and working on task without interruption though so here we are.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#367

Post by heroiccocoa »

pogue wrote: post #361

It would seem wise to potentially add a low dosed anabolic androgenic steroid like Anavar (Oxandrolone) [1] during a course of Ozempic. This would help keep skeletal muscle in tact during a calorie deficient period. A low dose wouldn't be expected to cause much, if any, side effects. But it's something that would be best put through rigorous studies. But bodybuilders have been using tricks like these for decades (obv…

There are non-steroidal OTC supplements that are specifically anti-catabolic instead of anabolic like HMB[1], a metabolite of the amino acid leucine, and also widely used in the fitness community. Personally I have no idea which is preferable though, or whether anti-catabolism is something actually positive, as we know the importance of autophagy of senescent cells for longevity. Most of the literature I read suggests the less growth signalling, the better longevity, with the only exception being the frail elderly.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92-Hydroxy_%CE%B2-methylbu...

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#368

Post by watwut »

bityard wrote: post #365
crazygringo wrote: post #281

I'm always so baffled by warnings about losing muscle when losing weight. Of course you do! If your body is tens of pounds lighter, then you don't need the extra muscle to lug it around. This paper is about reduction in heart muscle, and of course your heart doesn't need to be as strong because there's less blood to pump and less tissue to fuel. When you gain weight, you also increase the muscles needed to carry that…

I don't mean to target your comment specifically because it's obvious you know the difference, but I'm continually annoyed by the conflation of fat and muscle as "weight," even by medical professionals who should know better. We should not be talking about losing "losing weight" as a substitute for saying "losing fat," which is what most people mean. Likewise, when people say they want to "gain weight", they almost a…

The other thing is conflation between health and fitness. If you are below overweight range, no matter where you are, loosing additional fat is unlikely to make you healthier.

At some level of fat, which is actually more then "thin", you are perfectly fine. Further weight loss is about aesthetic or athletic performance, but has zero effect on health or even slight negative estimated health effect.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#369

Post by watwut »

burningChrome wrote: post #150
talkingtab wrote: post #96

It concerns me how discussions, such as this one go on HN. This is an important topic. With the epidemic of obesity we now find a drug that appeals to a large number of people. This is an important topic as well. What is the current comment receiving most of the comment? "That's the sort of headlines that smells like bullshit to me" That's the sort of comment that smells like bullshit to me. What kind of place is thi…

The cure for obesity isn't a pill. Remember in the 80's and 90's when exercising and being healthy was considered a cool thing? Remember there was a gym on every corner and people were all about looking good and being healthy, eating healthy and living longer? Then somewhere. . . - We started normalizing obesity. - We started this whole "body positivity" trend that celebrating morbidly obese people like Lizzo as posi…

What are you talking about. Obesity was and still is something super common to make fun off for years.

In the 80, there was less stigma to being obese then now.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#370

Post by bityard »

consteval wrote: post #360
s1artibartfast wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbs is also colloquialism for calorie dense grains and cereals. Broccoli is like 5% carbs by mass. Bread is 50% carbs by mass. It is a hell of a lot easier to overconsume the latter, spike your insulin, and get into a cycle of cravings. There is no boogie man trying to scare people away from broccoli.

> There is no boogie man trying to scare people away from broccoli I disagree, everyone I know who has been on a keto dietic consumes little to no fruits or fiber. Honestly, I'm not sure how they use the bathroom successfully with such little fiber ingestion.

I ate only keto for years and I'm getting back to it now so I have some experience to speak of.

You are correct, fruit is mostly sugar so no fruits. Some keto adherents allow the occasional handful of berries, but I found that just made me unreasonably hungry later on. Not everyone has this reaction, though.

There is plenty of fiber in above-ground vegetables. And even if there wasn't, it's not like eating only meat would kill you, humans evolved on the plains and/or jungles of Africa where meat was almost all that was easily available.

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