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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#361

Post by concordDance »

formerly_proven wrote: post #179
sparrish wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A jury of his peers thought there was enough evidence to convict him and they did. At that point, he's "guilty until proven innocent".

This seems like an exceedingly bad hill to die on. Curtis Flowers was convicted and sentenced to death six times for the same murder by juries of his peers, yet he's a free man today.

We don't have a better system at the moment, accepting its judgements is reasonable in light of that. And backseating when we're probably missing 90% of the evidence presented at court is unlikely to be any more accurate.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#362

Post by mandmandam »

telotortium wrote: post #345
komali2 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost benefit analysis wouldn't shake out in favor o execution on serious crimes due to add on effects. Cost benefit analysis and evidence based policy making would lead to a restorative justice system.

Rehabilitation has not been shown to work regularly in practice, particularly for criminals with long criminal histories (such as Marcellus Williams). The primary benefit of incarceration is incapacitation - keeping repeat criminals off the streets. Personally, I would make prison conditions less harsh, as long as we could guarantee that repeat criminals would stay in prison until they reach the age at which aggressi…

> Rehabilitation has not been shown to work regularly in practice

It works when it's done right [0].

One of the main reasons it fails to work is when the justice system itself is perceived as unfair [0]. So, things like inconsistently applied sentencing (!), systemic racism (!), over-the-top punishments (!) even in cases with significant doubt (!), etc...

0 - https://www.innovatingjustice.org/sites/default/files/docume...

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#363

Post by concordDance »

DoughnutHole wrote: post #67
game_the0ry wrote: post #55

Does anyone find it deeply disturbing that the justice system will just sit on its own hands when presented with new evidence? It seems like prosecutors are more interested in maintaining a hi conviction rate rather than seeking justice. Judges seem totally apathetic.

In this case the prosecutor actively pushed against the execution, arguing that his guilt was no longer beyond a reasonable doubt. The blame for this lies squarely on the Missouri Supreme Court and Gov. Parson (who has never once granted clemency in a capital case).

> the prosecutor actively pushed against the execution

Reading this thread, it's obvious there's been a big game of telephone with regards to what happened (half saying "a", half saying "the").

I hope this reminds people that they need to chase down sources as close to the original information source as possible as things can get misunderstood or distorted along the way.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#364

Post by ZeroGravitas »

komali2 wrote: post #343
WheatMillington wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I oppose the death penalty, but social policies should not be based on the outcome of cost/benefit analysis. If they were, executions would be used far more, on much less serious crimes, given rates of recidivism and revictimisation amongst certain crime types.

Cost benefit analysis wouldn't shake out in favor o execution on serious crimes due to add on effects. Cost benefit analysis and evidence based policy making would lead to a restorative justice system.

Cost benefit analysis would likely trace back to root causes in the same way it's cheaper to fix a bug before it gets shipped.

There's a great TED talk from a lawyer who was looking to reduce death penalty executions, who realised the best way to do that would be to reduce the number of murders and the best way to do that was to support kids and families with problems due to poverty and poor mental health.

The childhood anecdote from the guy he was working with that got executed has stayed with me for over a decade now:

https://youtu.be/HYzrdn7YLCM?si=ehMUoSFbLvQt_h3F

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#366

Post by timwaagh »

the American justice system is flawed. It's mob justice that was only fit for the 1700s when there was nothing better. Or maybe there was,I wasn't around. Untrained people can't decide on guilt or innocence. They can't judge evidence. They allow themselves to be swayed by beauty or likeability to greater extent. They're lives are no good, on average. This makes most of them mean and vindictive. If they can allow someone to suffer like they have, it feels good to them.

I'm not sure whether it's racism. It's the usual explanation for this phenomenon. I can understand racism. I don't believe in opening the floodgates. it sounds more like plain bloodlust. Because blood is what you're going to get if you go on this way.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#367

Post by spiritplumber »

jstummbillig wrote: post #35

> “The family defines closure as Marcellus being allowed to live,” the petition stated. “Marcellus’ execution is not necessary.” Imagine we lived in that world.

Aside the fact that the death penalty shouldn't exist in the first place, the victim's family should be able to veto it (automatic commutation to a life sentence).

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#368

Post by NietTim »

WheatMillington wrote: post #260
plandis wrote: post #236

It’s sad that the US government unnecessarily deprived a human being of their right to life. I hope one day the people involved are prosecuted for this premeditated murder.

State executions are literally, by definition, not murder.

And who wrote that definition again? Right, the murderers.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#369

Post by edanm »

istjohn wrote: post #250

If we aren't going to abolish the death penalty, we should at least require a higher standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt to carry it out. It should require incontrovertible proof. Circumstantial evidence should not be allowed. Expert testimony should be barred. The evidence must be conclusive, plain, and certain to every member of the jury. This would allow you to execute, e.g., mass shooters who give th…

> It should require incontrovertible proof.

There's really no such thing.

Instead, there is a very high burden of proof, there's a lot of protections built into the process, and, most important, it's an adversarial process in which one side is standing up for the defendant. If the evidence isn't good enough, the defendant's lawyer can and must show that to the jury, with them making the final decision on who is right.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#370

Post by arp242 »

WheatMillington wrote: post #260
plandis wrote: post #236

It’s sad that the US government unnecessarily deprived a human being of their right to life. I hope one day the people involved are prosecuted for this premeditated murder.

State executions are literally, by definition, not murder.

Legally speaking Stalin's purges were also not murder, by definition.

It's obvious the previous poster was making a point of morality, not legality. You can of course disagree with that morality. That's fine. But going "but akshually the law says..." is being highly obtuse.

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