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Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

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Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#361

Post by lomase »

mapcars wrote: post #353
lomase wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Spanish. We call it text analysis and it is quit common at all levels in school and university.

So what exactly is it supposed to teach/train? If I understand meaning of individual words in the text I just put them together and I understand it. If its relatively complex topic I would sit and think about it.

It teach you resources for text construction.

The different meanings of a word relative to its semantic enviroment.

When, how, and why to use all the different time vebrs.

How to understand and use figures of speech.

And it gives you tools to analyze all of that.

People dont do that in Ukranian?

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#362

Post by __gcd »

bloqs wrote: post #297

This is like saying that programming competence comes from breathing air. Creativity (measured by Openness in the Big Five) is a fundamental personality component that cannot be altered, in the same way that your working memory and IQ cant be altered (unsurprisingly they are closely related)

LSD famously increases openness.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3537171/

Also, openness is correlated but not equivalent to creativity.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#363

Post by rcxdude »

watwut wrote: post #356
kamaal wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indian math system is not memorisation based either. Math anywhere in the world is all about how many patterns you know/seen. And inventing new math is all about changing one small thing about the stuff you already know and see if it remains logically consistent. Knowing what to change largely depends on the stuff you already know. To that end even if you don't memorize facts, you still need to memorize patterns. You…

You don't "memorize" when learning math. You solve problems and then you happen to learn to recognize patterns and start to remember some things. Those are not the same learning activities. Memorization is something else. I have seen students trying to memorize math and these were all bad students. Completely lost when the exercise changed slightly. If we start to use "memorization" for "any time something is remembe…

"Drilling" is perhaps the better word. The point is it benefits from repetitive practice.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#364

Post by WalterBright »

jjk166 wrote: post #352
WalterBright wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You most certainly can be creative without remembering the facts. I've seen enough episodes of "Aviation Disasters", each of which dissects a crash or an averted crash, to not buy that. There was once a 727 that suffered an autopilot failure, which rolled it over into a steep dive. The speed exceeded them max speed, and due to separation the controls could not "bite" into the air. The creative pilot thought he migh…

How are any of those examples of "needing to remember the facts to be creative"?

Both are examples of going way off the reservation of known emergency procedures. First, knowing enough to override the fact that lowering the gear at such speeds can be catastrophic, the second knowing the fact that the pitchup is a violent maneuver and how to induce it.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#365

Post by mapcars »

lomase wrote: post #361
mapcars wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what exactly is it supposed to teach/train? If I understand meaning of individual words in the text I just put them together and I understand it. If its relatively complex topic I would sit and think about it.

It teach you resources for text construction. The different meanings of a word relative to its semantic enviroment. When, how, and why to use all the different time vebrs. How to understand and use figures of speech. And it gives you tools to analyze all of that. People dont do that in Ukranian?

First of all I must say that I can only speak about Russian schooling, Ukranian is probably similar but I can't be sure about it.

> resources for text construction Not sure I understand this, there are words in a given language, you put them together and you have your text.

> The different meanings of a word relative to its semantic enviroment. I agree that some words may have multiple meanings, but this again sounds to me like a language skill, be able to understand what exactly each word means in a context. Not sure how this is different for reading or speaking.

> When, how, and why to use all the different time vebrs. This is an interesting one, I guess in Russian (I assume its similar in Ukranian) we don't have many complex time forms, I know in English and Spanish there are like 10 or more.

Somehow we only studied language and literature and did some exercises related to reading and understanding text, but it is not a whole separate subject.

In each school class kids are supposed to read books and learn from them, just like that.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#366

Post by linearrust »

herdrick wrote: post #160
linearrust wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, okay, but rote memorization is neither necessary nor sufficient to internalize concepts. Of course it is. It's how every human child learns initially. By rote memorization. How does a toddler learn how to say mama? By constantly hearing and repeating it. How does a kid learn their ABCs? Rote memorization is the basis of all memory. > Memorization in programming gives us architecture astronauts and design-patt…

Strong points, but insults and emotion aren't how we do it on HN.

My personal motto: "Be the Change You Wish To See on HN".

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#367

Post by patrick451 »

zharknado wrote: post #132

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

> The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization.

I reject you rejection. You need to provide a reason something learned via pain is fundamentally different from something learned without pain. We used to beat school children for not learning their lesson.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#368

Post by louthy »

shw1n wrote: post #355
louthy wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't got that far, but went to have a look and yeah, as a fellow pianist I concur. Then I saw the following paragraph: "Another strategy that works well in both humor and famous EDM drops is "violating the expectation", but you need to know the expectation before you can violate it. Once you learn music theory, you're able to violate it in ways that resonate." You absolutely do not need to know anything about mus…

Thanks for reading! The "it" in "before you can violate it" is referring to music theory not the drop (maybe bad writing on my part). I also grew up as a classical pianist. Not saying creativity is memory, just saying creativity is enabled by memory (which I think agrees with you said about difficulties getting into that state if you haven't practised enough)

Creativity is also enabled by having bones, being an amorphous blob on the floor doesn’t help creativity. Creativity is also enabled by drinking water, being dust doesn’t help creativity.

Saying creativity is enabled by memory doest’t say anything interesting about creativity. It’s simply a prerequisite.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#369

Post by ahazred8ta »

matwood wrote: post #313
josephg wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We do this mainly because experts suck at empathizing with learners and fail to understand that the symbol has meaning for them but not for the learner. I hear you; but teaching deep expertise is really hard. We can use your example of a child learning their first language. They will really understand it. But people are famously, hilariously terrible at teaching their native tongue. We know how to conjugate, and ho…

> There is only so much the best teacher can teach. Sometimes you just have to walk around licking things. There's being taught and then there's exploring and practice. It's the exploring and practice that is often missing today, IMO because we all want everything to happen so quickly. In my sport of choice, jiujitsu, there's been a shift happening in teaching. Traditionally the teacher would show a move or two then…

Show me wax on wax off. Show me long stroke up and down. You come tomorrow same time.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22show+me+wax+on+wax+off%22&iax=v...

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#370

Post by shw1n »

louthy wrote: post #368
shw1n wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reading! The "it" in "before you can violate it" is referring to music theory not the drop (maybe bad writing on my part). I also grew up as a classical pianist. Not saying creativity is memory, just saying creativity is enabled by memory (which I think agrees with you said about difficulties getting into that state if you haven't practised enough)

Creativity is also enabled by having bones, being an amorphous blob on the floor doesn’t help creativity. Creativity is also enabled by drinking water, being dust doesn’t help creativity. Saying creativity is enabled by memory doest’t say anything interesting about creativity. It’s simply a prerequisite.

Except for some reason rather than saying this is obvious, many claim it's not true.

I agree that the biggest criticism of this is that it's obvious, but the amount of cultural pushback is what makes it semi-interesting to say in the first place.

Someone linked this article to me on Twitter with similar ideas:

https://nautil.us/how-i-rewired-my-brain-to-become-fluent-in...

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