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Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

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Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#361

Post by ncruces »

randerson wrote: post #227
zehaeva wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if every car is following the speed limit, that is going as fast as they are allowed, why would any one person be passing someone else?

I often find myself behind a truck that is kicking up stones or belching fumes or has a poorly secured load that looks like it could fly off. Doesn't matter if it is going the speed limit, I want to get past it.

If this really was your problem you'd lower your speed for a few seconds, gain a safe 500 meters between you and the truck, and finally arrive at your destination about a minute later than you would if you were just in front of it.

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#362

Post by its_ethan »

parl_match wrote: post #297
its_ethan wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said that they can know this data, not that they will ... Not requiring data reporting doesn't mean that the data won't be reported, as you seem to be already aware of. I am also in no way in support of the things you're referencing, just because they already exist doesn't mean it's just OK to accept further erosion of privacy. ALPR, cars with cell modems - these things are part of the same "slippery slope" of priv…

> As far as I can tell, you're saying "what you're worried about is already happening, so why bother being concerned about it getting worse?". I called them "serious problems". I don't know how you extrapolated "why bother being concerned" from "serious problems". And my point still stands that the situation you described, is, incredibly, not only not based in reality, but also simultaneously exists through other mea…

The concern I'm raising is that this legislation opens the door for further reductions in the privacy of location. In what way is that concern not based in reality?

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#363

Post by its_ethan »

kerkeslager wrote: post #320
its_ethan wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I've noted that there doesn't have to be a camera pointed at the driver... there does, however, have to be either a GPS and/or camera pointing outwards (that could be used to ID location) in order to know what the current speed limit is for the drivers given location. So the individual privacy at risk is the privacy of not having your location at any given time being knowable to a car manufacturer/ government age…

> [T]here does, however, have to be either a GPS and/or camera pointing outwards (that could be used to ID location) in order to know what the current speed limit is for the drivers given location. Used by whom? The mechanic who services my car? I see the problem if the location data is being broadcast to some central server... so don't do that. But that's not necessary for implementation. The ideal implementation in…

> Used by whom?

That's where the concern is. If the government is mandating it, it seems reasonable to think that more likely than not, they will want access to it. Even if for no other reason than to hand out tickets. The potential for that data to leak out is there.

> so don't do that

It's nice that you have a solution that would respect privacy concerns, but where should we be getting confidence from that a government will protect/enforce a system that is privacy-first? Look at how the EU has been handling encryption in messaging apps, they don't really seem to be in favor of protecting privacy as a "right".

> cars broadcasting location to a central server is already a problem

Correct, it's a problem that exists, and it's a problem that is made worse by this legislation. There are currently options that exist that don't use OnStar, or that don't phone home to their manufacturer. This legislation opens the door for further reduction in privacy, and that's the concern. Just because something is already going down a concerning path, it doesn't mean people shouldn't be concerned when things seem to be getting worse.

FWIW I don't use google maps, primarily because I don't want them tracking where I am

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#364

Post by illiac786 »

temporarely wrote: post #316
gambiting wrote: post #9

This is one example of legislation that mandates fantasy tech that doesn't exist. You'd think that something as simple as speed limiter should be very easy to implement, and it couldn't be further from the truth - watch any review of a car with this tech and every reviewer will complain that it's not the presence of the system that's the problem, it's the fact that it constantly gets the speed limit wrong. Either rea…

Smart(er) roads. A lot of this stuff becomes simpler if there is complementary tech on infrastructure. Instead of relying on reading 20th century tech (signs).

Too expensive. We don’t even have enough money to fix potholes…

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#365

Post by croes »

alfalfasprout wrote: post #99
croes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have relatives who got killed by a speeder you may think differently.

Crashing into another person is the problem-- not that they were speeding. Unless they were driving recklessly in a congested area in which case this would do nothing to help.

That's like saying, it's not the fall that kills you but the landing.

If you crash with higher speed you inflect more damage.

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#366

Post by galdosdi »

novagameco wrote: post #201
galdosdi wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well 5mph isn't really speeding Hold on now, that's just an opinion. And while it happens to kind of match mine, everyone's opinion on how much speeding is "really speeding" is kind of different, up to a point. Kind of proves my point-- I don't want something stopping me from doing 5MPH or 10MPH or even 15MPH over the limit if circumstances outside of my control indicate I should (NYC is a good example of an area w…

If the entire country had speed limiters and they increased the speed limits by 5mph to make 55 match 60, I'd be happy. I just have no sympathy for people who think it's their god given right to go as fast as they think they need to go.

That would require speed limiters to work a lot better than they do.

Also, the speed limit isn't 55 in the US. It varies between 50 and 80 depending on your state and region.

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#367

Post by randerson »

ncruces wrote: post #361
randerson wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often find myself behind a truck that is kicking up stones or belching fumes or has a poorly secured load that looks like it could fly off. Doesn't matter if it is going the speed limit, I want to get past it.

If this really was your problem you'd lower your speed for a few seconds, gain a safe 500 meters between you and the truck, and finally arrive at your destination about a minute later than you would if you were just in front of it.

I actually do this often. But in general if I put 500 meters in front of me, I'll have a series of impatient cars overtaking me from behind to fill the gap. So there is still (often dangerous) overtaking happening, thanks to the behavior of other road users in general. And when people overtake, if their speed is restricted to the speed limit they'll be facing oncoming traffic for longer than necessary.

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#368

Post by bluefirebrand »

croes wrote: post #321
bluefirebrand wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still turns you into a road hazard and puts you in a dangerous situation How about we don't take control away from the people in the driver seat If we can't trust them to operate the vehicle then we should not be letting them operate the vehicle We cannot solve the problem of terrible driver training with tech

>It still turns you into a road hazard and puts you in a dangerous situation How do you know? You make assumptions about a system, that doesn't even is put in place. No car manufacture will use the forth way and risks getting sued if it doesn't work good enough.

> How do you know? You make assumptions about a system, that doesn't even is put in place

It seems obvious that any situation that unexpectedly decreases a driver's control over their vehicle creates a hazard and becomes dangerous

This is true with any situation regardless of if the loss of control is caused by hydroplaning, slipping on black ice, an unexpected flat tire, or a speed limiting system misreading a road sign and reducing your maximum speed lower than the traffic around you

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#369

Post by tech_ken »

stavros wrote: post #273
tech_ken wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This feels very Big Brother, where someone (or some system) is watching over you so you don't break any laws Is having a speed-limit in the first place 'pre-crime prevention'? Regulating technology that can have public health implications is standard for governments, so to me it seems normal that they might site this regulation in the vehicle itself, rather than at usage-time. Is requiring cars to have like an ABS…

There's no downside to ABS. There's plenty of downside to a system that blanket bans speeding, even when the operator knows better than the system and is taking a calculated risk.

That's a subtle change of framing; I'm talking about this idea of the thing as a 'pre-crime' tool. I agree that the implementation you describe (ex. a hard cap on speed based on ex. GPS speed limit data) is a 'bad idea', but I don't agree that it's like a 'big brother bad idea', just that it's a bad implementation of an otherwise normal idea. There's plenty of ways one can imagine a gentle system of pushback against speed limits (ex. a warning bell, haptic feedback, mechanical governor impeding the engine from exceeding a certain RPM) that would not have the risks you're using to differentiate this from ABS.

Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars

#370

Post by stavros »

tech_ken wrote: post #369
stavros wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no downside to ABS. There's plenty of downside to a system that blanket bans speeding, even when the operator knows better than the system and is taking a calculated risk.

That's a subtle change of framing; I'm talking about this idea of the thing as a 'pre-crime' tool. I agree that the implementation you describe (ex. a hard cap on speed based on ex. GPS speed limit data) is a 'bad idea', but I don't agree that it's like a 'big brother bad idea', just that it's a bad implementation of an otherwise normal idea. There's plenty of ways one can imagine a gentle system of pushback against…

I agree, if it's just a reminder, it's not as bad, it's just a step in the wrong direction. If they then change it to prevent you from breaking the limit, that will really be a nightmare scenario.
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