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Notes on Tajikistan

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Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#361

Post by cess11 »

cpursley wrote: post #358
cess11 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The late eighteen hundreds is "ancient history"? That's antiquity to you? I get the impression that this might come as a surprise to you: 'In the context of the Circassian slave trade, the term Circassians did not necessarily refer to ethnic Circassians, but was used as an umbrella term for a number of different ethnicities from the Caucasus region, such as Georgians, Adyge and Abkhazians, in the same fashion as the…

And btw, the fact that Circassia itself was the result of the westward expansion of a Persian speaking people who also subjected other cultures (not to mention were big slavers) just shows that you have literally no idea what you're talking about and grasping deep into history for reasons to be bigoted against Russians. Not to mention that the people running the Russian Empire at the time were actually Germans (who a…

Downplaying one of modernity's most complete genocides with 'they were actually persians that sold some slaves' and 'actually some of the people in charge were western european' is frankly disgusting.

Moscow's reach for the Black Sea had nothing to do with anti-slavery idealism or whatever you're getting at, they wanted ports and trade and didn't consider muslims as human as christians. It also seems to me that you don't consider serfdom a form of slavery, only international slave trade, which isn't a position I share.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#362

Post by cpursley »

cess11 wrote: post #360
cpursley wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m well aware of the Mountain of Tongues and Circassia, having traveled that region extensively (including Adygea) and read a number of history books about it. My country (America) had their own colonial project around that same time period (and also conflated various native groups) - like, ever heard of Manifest Destiny?

The US is still a colonial project, Puerto Rico being the obvious example. It's irrelevant however. You describe 1863 as ancient history, so I'm not keen on putting any trust into the words you're using or claims to being educated on the subject.

What's your nationality? Because it is absolutely relevant. If you don't employ some empathy and self-reflection of your own history when judging the historical actions of others, you literally get no say in the matter.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#363

Post by cpursley »

cess11 wrote: post #361
cpursley wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And btw, the fact that Circassia itself was the result of the westward expansion of a Persian speaking people who also subjected other cultures (not to mention were big slavers) just shows that you have literally no idea what you're talking about and grasping deep into history for reasons to be bigoted against Russians. Not to mention that the people running the Russian Empire at the time were actually Germans (who a…

Downplaying one of modernity's most complete genocides with 'they were actually persians that sold some slaves' and 'actually some of the people in charge were western european' is frankly disgusting. Moscow's reach for the Black Sea had nothing to do with anti-slavery idealism or whatever you're getting at, they wanted ports and trade and didn't consider muslims as human as christians. It also seems to me that you d…

Do NOT put words into my mouth about what I consider slavery or not (or anything, unless I explicitly write it). Yeah, Slav serfdom was shitty as was Russian Imperialism. And American Imperialism, British Imperialism and so-on.

And I'm not downplaying anything (and sure, the Russian Empire made justifications for what it did), I'm pointing out that my God - that was two centuries ago. By your measure, every modern American and Spaniard is a genocidal maniac...

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#364

Post by blackhawkC17 »

grecy wrote: post #260
admissionsguy wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the West what?

Have you ever wondered why Switzerland is the world's second largest exporter of processed coffee, despite never growing a single bean? [1]. Germany is 3rd, Netherlands is 4th. Hmmmm. Have you ever wondered why all those poor countries around the world sell unprocessed coffee to Switzerland for pennies rather than telling Switzerland to take a hike, processing it themselves and making way more money? Have you ever wo…

> Have you ever wondered why all those poor countries around the world sell unprocessed coffee to Switzerland for pennies rather than telling Switzerland to take a hike, processing it themselves and making way more money?

Setting up a factory costs a lot of money, and almost no one is willing to make long-term investments in a corrupt and unstable country.

> The multi-billion dollar loans from the IMF and World Bank have these countries over a barrel, and if they try to change the status quo, they will be sent back to the dark ages instantly.

Botswana, the best-governed country in Africa, has managed its economy well enough to never need an IMF bailout. Meanwhile, Ghana has gone begging for IMF bailouts 17 times [1]. If the Ghanaian leaders (voted in by citizens) weren't perpetually inept, the country wouldn't constantly go to the IMF with begging plates.

> Spending time in Sudan was very educational, though it means I can never get a visa-wavier for the US. Why do you think that is? (Hint: gas in Sudan was 6 cents a liter..., diesel was half that)

Sudan had a murderous dictator who reigned for three decades. He was toppled, but it didn't take long for the country to fall into a current bloody civil war.

> A foreigner can go to the island where the capital is no problem, but try getting permission to go to the mainland - you can't. Even with a valid visa you can't get in. (I camped in view of it here [2] )

Because Equitoreal Guinea is run by a comical dictator who lives lavishly while most of his citizens live in penury. Of course, he doesn't want foreigners to see the mess he oversees.

As an African (Nigerian to be specific), I'm actually tired of foreigners always finding excuses for our problems. It's condescending to assume we have no agency, and everything bad that happens to us is the fault of some foreign boogeymen.

1- https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/business/Year-in-Revi....

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#365

Post by cess11 »

cpursley wrote: post #362
cess11 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is still a colonial project, Puerto Rico being the obvious example. It's irrelevant however. You describe 1863 as ancient history, so I'm not keen on putting any trust into the words you're using or claims to being educated on the subject.

What's your nationality? Because it is absolutely relevant . If you don't employ some empathy and self-reflection of your own history when judging the historical actions of others, you literally get no say in the matter.

My ancestors were mainly sami and travelling peoples. The swedish crown more or less eradicated them.

Not sure why that would make me empathetic towards muscovite genocidaires.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#366

Post by cpursley »

cess11 wrote: post #365
cpursley wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your nationality? Because it is absolutely relevant . If you don't employ some empathy and self-reflection of your own history when judging the historical actions of others, you literally get no say in the matter.

My ancestors were mainly sami and travelling peoples. The swedish crown more or less eradicated them. Not sure why that would make me empathetic towards muscovite genocidaires.

Well that makes you related to my wife, who’s part Komi (her father’s first language). But even they're not butthurt about what the Russians did to them - it was a long time ago. And actually, the Soviets made an effort to preserve the language - she had to take classes in school and much of the local signage is in Komi. People there on the river will even greet you in Komi, still.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#367

Post by BeFlatXIII »

blackhawkC17 wrote: post #85
grecy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family I spent 2 years driving the length of the Pan-American Highway, and 3 years driving right around the African continent. What you said can equally be applied to many…

> Incredibly friendly, warm, kind and happy people to a degree I did not know was possible on planet earth. Sadly they're held down by corruption, ineptitude and the West. The problems are significantly of their own doing. I live in one such country (Nigeria), and many people say the same thing about my people- warm, friendly, and whatever. But being warm and friendly doesn’t build a successful nation. Tribalism, hig…

> high tolerance for corruption from the locals

I wonder how much of this is equivalent to small towns in the US passing laws to become speed traps. They get their revenue from out-of-towners passing through as the natural design speed of the highway instead of the posted limit. The difference is that police bribes go directly to the officer's pocket while speeding tickets get sent to the municipal budget, then allocated to the officer's salary.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#368

Post by cess11 »

cpursley wrote: post #363
cess11 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downplaying one of modernity's most complete genocides with 'they were actually persians that sold some slaves' and 'actually some of the people in charge were western european' is frankly disgusting. Moscow's reach for the Black Sea had nothing to do with anti-slavery idealism or whatever you're getting at, they wanted ports and trade and didn't consider muslims as human as christians. It also seems to me that you d…

Do NOT put words into my mouth about what I consider slavery or not (or anything, unless I explicitly write it). Yeah, Slav serfdom was shitty as was Russian Imperialism. And American Imperialism, British Imperialism and so-on. And I'm not downplaying anything (and sure, the Russian Empire made justifications for what it did), I'm pointing out that my God - that was two centuries ago. By your measure, every modern Am…

I didn't. Your reading comprehension in english might not be as good as you think.

Sure you are. You're bringing up excuses.

Antiquity ended at the dawn of medieval times. That's like half a millenium earlier than where you want to put it. 1863 is quite some distance into modernity, well into the age of the railroad.

I haven't made anything in this about individuals, rather centering it around Moscow, which has at times been sacked by mongols, crimean tatars and culturally dominated by Paris. But well yeah, the US is quite genocidal. So what? Do you consider it the golden standard of statecraft or something?

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#369

Post by plastic_bag »

I visited Tajikistan last summer and spent about three weeks in the country. One week in Khujand (I crossed the border from Uzbekistan) and Dushanbe, and two weeks in the Pamirs.

Just like the author I (from India) travelled with a couple of Europeans, a German girl and a French guy. I very much enjoyed my time there, especially in the Pamirs. I stayed with a local family who hosted me in Khorog. I went hiking, watched Afghan villages from across the border, and also worked remotely.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#370

Post by plastic_bag »

hot_gril wrote: post #309
theanonymousone wrote: post #189

Not so new fact that many here may already know: The (in?)famous -stan suffix, coming originally from Persian, is an etymological cousin of State, Street, Statistics, Strategy and Stadt. In Iran, provinces are called Ostan and some Ostans' names end with -stan (e.g. Ostan of Kurdistan). By the way, since it's not clear from their names, it may be worth noting that Tajiki and Persian are two dialects of the same langu…

Many countries with non-stan names in English have -stan names in their own languages, like Hindustan. Also, lots of Mid East or central Asia town names end with -abad ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A2%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AF#Pers... ). Interestingly, so do some large American city names, I can't remember which.

> Also, lots of Mid East or central Asia town names end with -abad

This is also the case in South Asia, especially in areas that were once ruled by Islamic monarchies.

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