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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#361

Post by nullstyle »

lukan wrote: post #354
sim7c00 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i love how humans always put themselves outside of nature, and like you point out, that scientists, even though they dispute where that notion comes from, cling onto it religiously :D. There's even animals with more developed / complex brains as us, but surely, they can't be conscious! My dog isn't dreaming about anything, he's just flapping his feet and snorting and making cute sounds in his sleep at random, likely…

How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?

The boss/worker relationship within our current mode of production seems to be another way we justify treating others like raw resources. Especially in lean financial times.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#362

Post by ozim »

dorongrinstein wrote: post #3

Do people not have dogs? They have more emotional intelligence than most humans and love, fear, play, plan, think, reason and communicate well. This is true for many animals. I'd say that most animals are just like human in terms of consciousness but less advanced in thinking and communicating (without debating about whales, dolphins, octopuses etc.)

I have a dog and I know it is dreaming and having all kinds of emotions and wants. It can communicate with me in its own way and of course has needs for being close and attention. I got it from silly people who could not take care of it well and it was a lot of work to gain its trust so we could be real companions.

But my dog for sure is not pondering mysteries of the universe and is most likely not aware it is going to die one day and is not going to have existential dread thinking about it.

We are made from the same things and share a lot - but at the same time we are so much different that it cannot be just "humans are just the same as animals".

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#363

Post by solardev »

jumploops wrote: post #305

I once witnessed a spider controlling a motion activated flood light to catch prey. At first I assumed the flood light in my backyard was just being triggered by the wind, as a spider had built a web in front of the sensor, however I then noticed that the light would turn on even when there wasn’t any wind. Upon closer inspection, I found that the spider had created a singular strand of webbing, thicker than the rest…

Don't those motion lights typically use passive infrared sensors? I'm surprised it's sensitive enough to see spider silk moving. Could the strand possibly have been blocking some radiative source behind the strand (the sun?)?

Now if the spider knew THAT...

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#364

Post by sim7c00 »

abainbridge wrote: post #355
sim7c00 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i love how humans always put themselves outside of nature, and like you point out, that scientists, even though they dispute where that notion comes from, cling onto it religiously :D. There's even animals with more developed / complex brains as us, but surely, they can't be conscious! My dog isn't dreaming about anything, he's just flapping his feet and snorting and making cute sounds in his sleep at random, likely…

Not only that, but my dog has enough theory of mind to ignore a toy/food resource until another dog turns up, at which point she will grab it and parade in front of the other dog to show they can't have it. She knows she can demonstrate dominance by holding the resource that she thinks the other dog wants, even though she doesn't want it herself.

Haha love it. we had one which would just shake her head at certain foods. 'nope, not gonna eat it' and just sit nexto the bowl sad :D (we really really tried.. but had to shift foods :D)

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#365

Post by solardev »

dsego wrote: post #352
throwup238 wrote: post #38

> We now know that bees can count, recognise human faces and learn how to use tools. I was curious what that means in this context and found this research (co-authored by Prof Chittka mentioned in the article): https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by…

> Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by mimicry. Humans are the same, try teaching basic math equations to kids. When I was in school, most of us learned math by memorizing steps to solve the problem instead of understanding it. Then on the test if we found something we couldn't recognize, we wouldn't be able t…

Even as an adult I don't really know how anything works, lol. I just copy whatever's on Stack or GPT, get paid in magical numbers, and exchange those numbers for food like my mom did. At least a bumblebee knows how to make flowers. When we want to grow something, we end up copying them...

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#366

Post by jprete »

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

Now that you mention it, I don't remember any Biblical support for animals not being conscious. Humans being special, yes - animals being unconscious automata, no. A quick Google search suggests the opposite conclusion can very easily be drawn, although I see no reason to elaborate on those arguments here.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#367

Post by jprete »

lolinder wrote: post #206
slowmovintarget wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent also, I think it simply varies from child to child. There is a point in time between vision developing and object permanence being learned where peek-a-boo is absolutely magic.

Peek-a-boo is a ton of fun with infants but I don't buy the explanation that it has to do with object permanence. At the same stage where peek-a-boo is hilarious my kids have also each been perfectly capable of watching me hide something and then going looking for it.

OT but maybe peekaboo works on the emotional tension and release of potential threats being revealed as friendly faces.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#368

Post by ninetyninenine »

maxbond wrote: post #218
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it,…

People identifying as rationalists are also often misguided. It’s a common trope among programmers who think they’re smart and think their intelligence leads to them being logical and unbiased.

I hate to break it to you but if you think you’re smart most likely you are more biased than normal.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#369

Post by sim7c00 »

4ggr0 wrote: post #356
lukan wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?

I genuienly think that this is one of the biggest factors when talking about this topic. Lots of people seem very defensive when talking about it. Because if they admit or speculate that animals have some form of consciousness, they also admit that they're responsible for killing thousands of conscious beings. As for myself, I can't believe that animals aren't concious.

I never really thought about it that way. killing loads of conscious beings. Until for Eid in Morocco I got the honour of helping to kill a sheep so the family could eat it. (100+ people tribe)

I am still not a vegetarian, but do have a much more realistic view on what's really on our plates now. - I don't think eating meat is bad though. I _do_ eat a lot less meat now. (smaller portions and less frequent). Predators eat prey, but they don't mass produce their prey.

For some random context: the sheep killing there - it was an old sheep, lived a blessed life loved by the community, to be eaten at an old age at Eid someday. Everyday the women in the village and maybe their kids will take the sheep to graze etc. and give them love like any farmer loves his animals. He was only scared moments before the deed was done as then they are moved to a little separate pen and likely realize it's the end for them. The families usually own only a few sheep, different ages. Occasionally when one ages out it's slaughtered. - Cows and other larger animals such as Camels are for extremely special occasions and actually rarely eaten. (once a year, or at a marriage or something special like that.)

I wish it was feasible in my country for example to do similar things, which are much more friendly to the animals involved, but it's litteraly ILLEGAL. funny how that works...

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#370

Post by sim7c00 »

nullstyle wrote: post #361
lukan wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?

The boss/worker relationship within our current mode of production seems to be another way we justify treating others like raw resources. Especially in lean financial times.

you are not wrong to draw this paralell. If humans can't treat eachother well, how little chance do animals have?
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