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Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

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361–370 of 381 posts

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#361
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not talking about trick question interviews when I say verification. I mean a chat with an experienced developer about past projects and verifying past job history. You’re right that it’s already possible in the US. It boggles my mind how risk averse companies are with respect to hiring compared to nearly every other aspect of business.

I have had experiences where a so called experienced developer "tests" me by asking a "trick question" related to something I created to verify whether I indeed created the thing. If the "thing" you built in the past has any level of complexity, you simply cannot remember all the details of what you built, and only the most recent aspect will be fresh in your memory to recall. So chances are very high you will fail t…

Yes I don’t think long interview cycles make sense at all in the US.

When I say a chat with another dev, I’m not talking about trick questions. I’m talking “hey what’s something you built that you’re proud of” or “what kinds of systems have you been working on for the last few years”.

Trick questions are always stupid.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s an easy fix. Don’t require relocation. As for easily firing employees, I’m only talking about during a probationary period. And then only for employees who misrepresented their ability to do the job.

There's still the "leave their stable job" problem to solve. I've been in this situation more than once. Do I stay with the company I know: where I'm not getting promotions or raises, but it's a known quantity with a 9-5 work environment, I'm not in perpetual crunch mode, I'm not getting yelled at by a boss as he snorts coke in the conference room. Do I leave this nice stable, boring, no-growth company for yours wher…

I’ve never left anywhere I didn’t hate for 10%.

If we are comparing apples to apples though—same job with an option for 2 interviews, no coding interview, no take home test, but there’s a 90 day probationary period. Versus no probationary period with a 2 month long 7 round interview cycle, I’d take the probationary period in a heartbeat.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#363
post #38

> If you're too specific about the position, you get too few quality candidates. What do you mean by too few? I'd say that zero is too few, but one quality candidate might be perfect, because then the hiring process can go very fast. There's no reason why you couldn't or shouldn't hire the first quality person you find. In my opinion, the biggest problems with job postings are: 1) No salary/compensation listed, which…

Out of those quality candidates that apply: Some will find a job before they finish you interview process. Some will change their mind. Some will have a change on personal circumstances. Some (many?) will ask for more than you can offer. To hire one good person, you usually need many to apply.

>Some will find a job before they finish you interview process.

Not if your interview process allows for a good candidate to get an offer in a reasonable time frame. If so, then rare. You could make an offer on spot, for example.

>Some will change their mind.

Not if your interview process allows for a good candidate to get an offer in a reasonable time frame. If so, then rare. You sign a contract on the spot for example.

>Some will have a change on personal circumstances.

Not if your interview process allows for a good candidate to get an offer in a reasonable time frame. If so, then rare.

These first three are all the same. People will bail out if you're too slow with your dumb hiring processes. Don't be slow and the problem mostly goes away.

>Some (many?) will ask for more than you can offer.

Not if you post your salary bands with your job openings like any decent company would do.

>To hire one good person, you usually need many to apply.

Nah, you need a couple of decent candidates to apply, a first choice and a fallback if you want to worry about those rare case of someone changing their mind. If your salaries are public and your process is efficient, you need only one good candidate, maybe two for backup and variety outside of core competency.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>he kind of developer who writes code quickly may also be the kind of developer who jumps to conclusions too quickly I'm the opposite of this, but when I wanted a really high paying job, I just practiced a bunch to code quickly. That was actually my biggest hurdle, sometimes I'd understand the problem but I couldn't bang out actual working code fast enough. Other times I'd get so nervous that I wouldn't have time to…

Yes but what kinds of people have the time to practice puzzle solving? Not everyone. For example I've been coding for 10 years, I used to be good at solving puzzles under time constraints but I'm not as good at it anymore because I prioritized practical architecture and other code design skills. I'm a much better coder today by all relevant metrics. My problem is that I sometimes run out of time during the tech tests…

>Yes but what kinds of people have the time to practice puzzle solving?

The kind who want to get an extra 100 - 200k a year in RSUs?

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#365
post #281
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to qualify, unions may have solved this problem in the US. in europe, which has a stronger apprentice culture, unions don't have any role here. (i am not saying this to criticize the comment but just to point out one of the many differences between unions in the US and europe) the problem with apprentice programs is that they lag behind the changes in the industry. when i was in school there were none for software de…

unions are long established in europe, at least in western europe, and are a cornerstone of the social system. even white collar jobs have unions. this is in contrast to the US where unions are almost entirely non existent for white collar jobs like software engineering.

You didn't understand the context. Unions in Europe are usually not involved at all in accrediting professionals in their fields. Thats what the conversation is about.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#366
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are cargo cutting, I was about to make the same point. I am more likely to get a leetcode quiz from a small company trying to emulate a FAANG company than I am from an interview with an actual FAANG company. Leetcode is part a costly signal given the study that has to be put into it, and part IQ test. I think part of the proliferation of leetcode is due to the illegality (edit: in effect even though not explicit…

Can we have similar tests for companies, some formalized employment-worthiness?

Yes, it would be very possible. In Brazil for example, several million people each year do the national test for public sector jobs, with the test result deciding who gets hired. So it doesn't matter who you're related to, if you have the same hobby as your interviewer, or if the HR person thinks you're cute or not. It's the test and that's it. At least in theory.

The military branches world wide also generally hires and promotes on merit and testing. So it's nothing strange.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The teachers aptitude test involved errors in scoring the test, not a conceptual problem with aptitude testing teachers.

As it appears you are more familiar with the case than I am, it would be helpful if you could point out what those errors are? As best I can tell 'Judge Wood ruled that an older state-certification test, which was intended to measure teachers’ knowledge of the liberal arts and science, was racially discriminatory.' Elsewhere I'm seeing "The court found that Black and Latino teachers clearly passed these tests at lowe…

That kind of reasoning seems amazing to me. Some people didn't perform as well on the test as the judge wanted, so the test is wrong. It's even racist!

If men get into traffic accidents more often than women, then clearly there is something wrong with the cars and car manufacturers should be sued for their discrimination?

In the Eastern bloc, agriculture was immensely held back because everybody had to follow the ideology and adjust their science and methods to "I god damned said so!" of the rulers. Seems like America is curious about following the same path.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#368
OP, there is no paradox.

A paradox is a circular contradiction and its fact that its gotten a whole lot harder on both sides (there is no contradiction).

Honestly, what's happening is a bit more nuanced. It is a purposeful economic attack. I know that sounds controversial but hear me out.

Towards the end of 2022, anyone unemployed saw marked increases in difficulty in finding work of all kinds starting shortly after the public release of Chat-GPT.

Within 3 months, conversion of application/resume to callback went from roughly 1.5% per 100 for System Engineer level positions to less than 0.0015% just ballpark (from personal numbers). The number of posted jobs greatly increased, but they were not real jobs, and the fake jobs that you used to be able to differentiate between could no longer be differentiated.

This is economic interference between employer and employee relations, its purposeful, and; mind you, this is largely before all the layoffs, its continued to get worse.

A solid 70% of IT related jobs posted on Indeed, Monster, and Linked in are employers who either have no position available, or are not actually hiring. The platforms do not appear to be removing listings of fake companies nor do they do a proper due-diligence vet on them. Its a free for all, and they are incentivized to make it this way to guide you to paid services. (Parasites)

For example, one infamous company that does this is Patterned AI, they used various iterations of that name on LinkedIn, and you get hit by a slew of various spam and advertisements the moment you apply (across all associated devices).

I've run across many companies that fail a very basic Secretary of State (SOS) lookup (i.e. they aren't companies who are registered with the SOS to do business in the state, but they advertise in that state (not remote).

Many also are companies that appear to be shill companies. They may pass a basic SOS lookup, but it may be a corporation who has only one person on the BOD, with alternating failures to provide the required Information forms, and the on-premise location may in actuality be registered to a UPS store or other type of mail location, any number of other red flags (not going to list them all here, but you can get a good idea of what I look for in terms of it being an operating business). Some are even registered in Google as being present at that physical location (when they aren't). I literally reported 14 companies yesterday that were doing that where there is no public contact/revenue stream that works (i.e. dubious website with contact info that is disconnected and no longer in service), yet job posted that day.

The problem is, there is no immediate penalty for companies engaging in this bad acting. Its not getting attention by legislators, DAs or AGs.

Additionally, head hunters are incentivized to do this since it makes their services more attractive to both employers and prospective candidates. This includes HR AI based services to algorithmically weed out resumes.

There are companies that engage in data harvesting without your knowledge, and thanks to a mail server I set up (unique resume attached to unique alias for each one), I've got a blacklist that I no longer apply to, but in general this is an extraordinary measure just to find out who not to apply to.

I've been looking for roughly 2 years now, thousands of resumes, 9 1/2 YOE in IT System's Engineering, a few calls but no offers. Granted its a bad time right now to find IT work in general.

There are companies that will even call you in for an interview, but then press you on confidential information you can't disclose from previous employers (I've walked out of several of these, and reported them to my states AG).

Overall, as a job seeker, its impossible to find a job. You have finite time to apply and you no longer know if the job actually exists, and the cost to vet companies is borne solely by you, and you really shouldn't have to have an intimate knowledge of Open Source Intelligence (querying various governmental records) to determine a risk score of the company existing or not.

As an employer, there are a lot of options to find qualified people which simply are not being done because of laziness or unrealistic expectations. It shouldn't take more than three interviews to get an idea of how the candidate is going to work out.

Most employers shoot themselves in the foot by requiring Certifications or Bachelor's Degrees when people have the appropriate experience doing that job. In this respect, it is basically a cult of qualification, where you aren't qualified if you don't have the paper, and that's farcical. Also using that at as a negotiation tactic to lowball suppress wage negotiations, or bait and switch is also a surefire way to weed out anyone that might have the skill. "I see you don't have ..., we can't pay you what we would pay a qualified person but we have another position at (minimum wage, same responsibilities)."

Anyone thinking that's not going to backfire spectacularly is just plain stupid and malevolent.

Personally, I think it should be illegal and self-enforcing to post a job as being available when no job actually exists, and it should be so severe that it puts any company engaged in that activity out of business.

The problem is interference has gotten to the point that no one can find the other party. This effect is known in the scientific community because it happens in a number of other systems, (i.e. RNA interference, USDA agriculture controlling parasites such as the screw-worm etc).

The reason why I say its purposeful is, there isn't much money in this. When people cannot find jobs, they stop looking in that sector. There is an understanding that you go where the jobs are. Unfortunately, there is now no good way to retool or even know which sector to go into. Vocational training has been gutted over the past 20 years, and anyone over the age of 25 isn't eligible. College now requires Marxist DEI re-education for graduation (Ethnic Studies).

Food stamps currently only provide support for 1 week of food per month at local price levels.

When you cannot find a job at all, because of various interference's outside your control, and social support systems fail to the point where you start starving, that historically inevitably leads to violent unrest and rioting.

It also doesn't help that I can now theoretically go and take entry level work in retail and get paid almost as much per hour as I could make white collar with a boatload of responsibility as a T2 technician (20-25$/hour) at a MSP.

Any solution would require major structural changes, legislation, and regulation of online platforms, and criminal penalties.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm from Eastern Europe and your observations match mine. There is still a huge amount of skilled devs here but USA companies skip them almost automatically.

> There is still a huge amount of skilled devs here but USA companies skip them almost automatically. English fluency and/or Employment Laws are a big issue as well. Most companies have already had an Israeli or Indian subsidiary since the 1990s-2000s. Most didn't start entering Eastern Europe until the 2010s, and much of that was in Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus thanks to EPAM and the massive Soviet Diaspora in the U…

As a Bulgarian I completely agree on Bulgaria. :D

But employment laws are not an issue. Last 8 years I didn't have even one employment arrangement, it was all contracts. I get it, you still have to pay some overhead for each country but you can outsource to various services that cover those quite well.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're basing your entire argument on an arbitrary deadline (six weeks). I am giggling as I am monitoring several job forums and seeing several companies pop up periodically (once a quarter I'd say) looking for the same positions... 2.5 years later. So let's change the example. Is it really worth it to be as picky for 2.5 years? I'd wager they lost money because of that. Any senior dev can learn GWT or anything simil…

> Is it really worth it to be as picky for 2.5 years Yes as an employer. > I'd wager they lost money because of that No. If a role isn't filled in a quarter, that money is in most cases reverted back into the compensation pool used to either help hire a high performer, or give bonuses to the existing team. 99% of a time, an IC Engineering role will NOT make or break a company's entire financial future. If this is one…

Hm, I think we're talking different scenarios. I was under the impression that the new person is sorely needed and not having them on board would lead to lost revenue.
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