Earlier quoted context omitted.
Find me a list of countries that ethnically cleansed a population of millions and put them under occupation and treat them like less than humans. You know that history of human being did not start in 2023. Israel is not in a normal conflict. It is an occupation force and their government seeks to prevent Palestinians from having their state and some elements want to destroy them once and for all. Edit: sorry I though…
>Find me a list of countries that ethnically cleansed a population of millions and put them under occupation and treat them like less than humans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1508wboZXk Closer and dearer to Palestine one only need to look at how the Copts are treated in Egypt, the Kurds in Turkey and the Marsh Arabs in Iraq. >You know that history of human being did not start in 2023. Very good, so you should re…
Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
361–370 of 968 posts
Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you support that claim?
The 'claim' that it bombed churches? https://www.wsj.com/video/israeli-airstrike-hits-orthodox-ch... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius_air...
Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The framing of Gazans as a whole as "Hamas's people" is at best problematic I fully agree with you on everything you said. Doesn't change the fact though that the blame for all the Palestinian casualties cannot be laid on Israel, not even by international law - as Hamas, the (more or less) legitimate government of Gaza, abused civilian infrastructure, they stripped it from the legal protection against military acti…
Look, I am both ideologically and morally more aligned with Israel (or the pre-Otzma-Yehudit-getting-an-ounce-of-power Israel anyway) than I ever could be with regards to Hamas. But "what's the alternative to doing an ethnic cleansing?" is "not doing a ethnic cleansing". Yes, that's harder. It involves more work, it involves more risk, and when the book closes, you don't get every last inch of what you want. It also…
People keep saying this but I don't know why. For me it's obvious that if the IDF keep besieging Gaza, Hamas will eventually have to come out of their holes, and die.
I suspect this already happens a lot except we don't get to find out because there's no reporting from the locations where IDF and Hamas fighters exchange fire. But, reports from the few hostages that have been released, or freed, make it clear that Hamas is subject to the same deprivation of food and water as the rest of Gaza (the hostages tell stories about the poor quality and amount of meals they shared with their guards) and they're stuck in their bunkers to boot, which can't be great for their overall physical and mental stamina.
This is not a war that Hamas can win, not even survive. Not in the long run. Their best chance is to keep their heads down and wait it out. But if I understand that, IDF commanders certainly understand that and they're not going to go away until Hamas all come out of their holes exhausted and starved waving little white flags.
I think the mistake people make is to think of Hamas a bit like the partisans who took to the maquis in WWII, or maybe the Taliban against the US. It's not the same situation. Hamas has nowhere to go. They are trapped, like rats in a maze. They're not getting out of that alive, unless the IDF is forced to withdraw by political pressure, which so far is not happening.
Besides which, if the IDF keeps at it like it is, it won't really matter because there won't be any Gaza, or Gazans, left for Hamas to control.
Hamas (and I mean the Al Qassam brigades) are toast. The only question is how much Gaza will bleed until they pop out of the toaster.
Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare workers is ridiculously high. Would be interesting to see what the death rates for journalists, medics, soldiers, etc was in afghan war, iraq war, vietnam war, etc. I highly doubt any reaches 10%.
> 10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare workers is ridiculously high. Hamas based their operations where conventional rules of war prohibit fire. That makes comparing casualty rates incredibly difficult. (To my knowledge, nobody else has done this so comprehensively. Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated. Which unfortunately…
Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
I expect Hamas is still exerting plenty of control. I'm not sure what "confirmed what had been reported" really means here. The problem isn't that we're necessarily getting outright lies and fake news (I'm sure we're getting some), but that we're getting a very selective and emotional view into the horrors of war. There's zero doubt that the impact of the war on Gaza is immense and so there's zero doubt that journali…
I think some of those arguments verge into the 'there is no truth, it's all a matter of how you paint it' territory, which is the argument of disinformation and propaganda (I'm saying it not to accuse the parent; I assume they don't want disinfo, etc.) Objectively, Israel has caused a very high rate of civilian deaths, destruction of property, and is causing a near-famine or famine. People argue that such outcomes ar…
I have a problem though when the media just shows an endless stream of emotionally manipulative images and stories. I also have a problem with their selectivity, e.g. they don't chose to show us civilians being attacked in Donetsk or something. They also generally don't show us images of Israeli refugees from the north and the south or actually report on that at all. They totally ignore events like rockets being fired at Israeli cities (still happens though a lot less). The coverage of Hezbollah's attacks and massive scale property destruction in the north of Israel is also nonexistent.
Even at the height of the Russia-Ukraine war we weren't being flooded by the same level of images/stories. Yes, we did get some stories out of Mariupol but not nearly as much as we get out of Gaza. Ukraine claims 25,000 civilians were killed in Mariupol (out of 500,000 people!). I think the destruction of Mariupol easily eclipses the destruction in Gaza. The Russians weren't facing anything similar to what Israel is facing in Gaza, they just blitzed the heck out of the city. Who is painted as more "evil" in western media, Russia or Israel? Arguably Israel. Ofcourse Russia invaded Ukraine and for most of us is clearly the "bad guy" here.
EDIT: and by the way, if you consume Israel media, which is obviously very pro-Israeli. You'll still get the same facts about the conditions in Gaza. But if you consume anti-Israeli media you will get no other relevant facts. If you ask people in the west some very basic questions about the conflict you'll find total cluelessness which is a result of that. Ask a random American how far Tel-Aviv is from Gaza, or where is Palestine, or what is Hezbollah, or any number of basic knowledge questions about the conflict and see. Most know O(nothing), see images of suffering and destruction all day, and naturally will align themselves with the side they see suffering.
Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes? Use your basic reasoning. Hamas fights in civilian clothing, they hide in civilian buildings, they hide in hospitals. They use regular civilians as shields. This is not your average fight; Hamas hates their enemy more than they love their own country.
Maybe another method is needed then? If you can't tell innocent people from legit targets... rethink the approach? Here is my reasoning: they hide in civilian clothes, okay let's not shoot civilians. They hide in hospitals, okay let's not bomb hospitals. They use civilian buildings, okay let's not bomb civilian buildings. They use civilians as shields... let's not shoot the shields. How is that unreasonable?
What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd prefer an egalitarian solution. But, I'm all out of ideas. Find me an instance of 2 co-habiting or neighboring groups that hate each other, have huge disputes and ended up in relative peace.
I can give you my recent examples of previous instances that are now mostly peaceful, and all of them violate the geneva convention or UN human rights declaration.
Xinjiang = permament open air prison and extreme brain washing
Srilanka LTTE = violent genocide of all suspected participants and their innocent family. 100k civilians killed
Bosnia - Sijekovac killings = violent genocide of thousands of innocent Bosnians in the Bosnian war
Kosovo - thousands of killings, massive population displacement (1+ million) & US military intervention
So what is it ? Do we want the US to intervene and guarantee safety to Israel ? Do we want real open air prisons and complete cultural eradication ? Do we want population displacement of every Gazan to a 3rd location ? Hopefully we are not in support of genocide ?
Well, so what is 'another method' ?
Every single instance of haphazardly drawn post-WW2 line, has led to some kind of insurgency, war, genocide or forced population displacement. Peaceful borders are drawn in the blood of ancestors. The west is simply fortunate enough to have concluded it's killing mid-way through the 20th century. Israel is currently going through one such process. It is especially rich to see the criticism come from western nations who first created the problem. They encouraged the conditions that led to Oct 2023: 2005 withdrawl of Israel and rise of Hamas, and its unilateral control on aid. They refuse to propose any middle ground solution. It's ridiculous.
Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The framing of Gazans as a whole as "Hamas's people" is at best problematic I fully agree with you on everything you said. Doesn't change the fact though that the blame for all the Palestinian casualties cannot be laid on Israel, not even by international law - as Hamas, the (more or less) legitimate government of Gaza, abused civilian infrastructure, they stripped it from the legal protection against military acti…
Look, I am both ideologically and morally more aligned with Israel (or the pre-Otzma-Yehudit-getting-an-ounce-of-power Israel anyway) than I ever could be with regards to Hamas. But "what's the alternative to doing an ethnic cleansing?" is "not doing a ethnic cleansing". Yes, that's harder. It involves more work, it involves more risk, and when the book closes, you don't get every last inch of what you want. It also…
Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are aware of Human Rights Watch’s history with Israel, right? Here’s a taste: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2009/07/fu...
> the organization's senior Middle East official, Sarah Leah Whitson, attempted to extract money from potential Saudi donors by bragging about the group's "battles" with the "pro-Israel pressure groups." What's wrong with that? Any honest observer will have battles with groups who want to spin the truth. I'd say one of the biggest problems in the US political system right now is that we don't have enough organization…
Who do you think "private supporters" are in Saudi Arabia?
And no, I don't think anyone with anything resembling power or wealth in Saudi Arabia supports human rights.
HRW execs admit via email to the editor in chief of a nationally respected magazine that they raise money by bragging how tough they are on Israel. And then they are tough on Israel, and you think it's a principled stance. Maybe they just have profitable principles, I dunno.