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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#361

Post by sgerenser »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #185
readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

Had exactly the same experience recently. It seems like there are plenty of good mini-split heatpump systems that will work down to 0F (or even lower) without any kind of backup heat source. But if you're replacing a forced air furnace that feeds an existing ducts the only options are heatpumps that need to have backup heat under 30F. So essentially you're buying 2 furnaces in one which increases the cost. I'm in the…

There's plenty of central split heat pumps that can function just fine below 30F. Look for ones marked "hyper heat" or advertised for use in cold climates. As long as the heatpump can handle down to 0F or so, then your backup heat only really needs to be an electric resistance heat strip (inefficient, but very cheap) since it would be used so infrequently.

OTOH, if you're replacing a gas furnace and already have A/C, then installing a new gas furnace + heat pump shouldn't cost much more than a new gas furnace + new A/C.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#362

Post by exitzer0 »

freetime2 wrote: post #347

I hear a lot of horror stories on HN every time the subject of heat pumps comes up. Things like high costs, units not defrosting properly in winter, etc. Most of these stories tend to be for central air conditioning units. I think that mini-splits could be a much better introduction to heat pumps for a lot of folks. They are cheap, easy to install, and the units in my house have been running 12 years as our only sour…

Mini-splits seem like they are the future for the value conscious and light-weight DIY crowd.

These systems are quite simple in design and implementation while also offering a pretty effective way to control temperature in a zoned way in various parts of the house. They also can be had in 120V sizes making them far easier to accomidate for solar-powered households, etc.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#363

Post by aidenn0 »

ajross wrote: post #171
aidenn0 wrote: post #156

Anyone know what sort of electrical requirements there are for these? We currently have a gas furnace and gas range. My electrical panel is full (we used up the last of it installing 220V for the clothes dryer), and the furnace is on the opposite side of the house from the electric panel, under a different roofline. I'm going to at some point get an electrician in to look at things and see what the options are, but m…

You don't need space in the panel as clearly you already have a circuit breaker for your existing air handler. It will be a bigger line though, my house in Portland got a central heat pump and handler that wants 40A.

I would not put it past the people who wired this house to have shared circuit for the furnace blower with the bathroom right next to it, but we'll see.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#364

Post by newZWhoDis »

david422 wrote: post #270
bruce511 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not in NE, so forgive me if this is obvious, but high electricity prices might make solar attractive to you. (Unrelated to the heat-pump question.) I'm in a similar high-priced environment, but we get a fair amount of sun. I'm getting around a 16% return on capital based on electricity usage reduction.

I use solar, but using heat pumps and an electric car uses maybe 3x more electricity than my roof can produce.

Higher efficiency panels + vertical panels would help. Most houses have decent south-facing walls.

Ground mount is also an option in many places.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#365

Post by super_moose1 »

nostrademons wrote: post #307
callalex wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a way this is the market doing what it's supposed to. There's a shortage of electricity because of everyone doing electrification upgrades, so the price of electricity rises PG&E electricity rates have absolutely nothing to do with free markets. The only thing setting PG&E rates is corruption and incompetence, but mostly corruption.

Customer choices in response to electric rates is absolutely free markets, though. I think that there's a lot wrong with the utility system in California (and the corruption actually incentivizes incompetence - the only way for executives to increase profits, make the stock go up, and get higher bonuses is to increase their costs, so PG&E is very good at inflating costs by doing stuff like burning down cities). But g…

Electricity in California is not a free market though.

When I lived in Texas I could choose my electricity provider and see what different rates they charge for electricity to choose a provider.

In California I can choose Edison for my electricity or have no electricity.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#366

Post by lotsoweiners »

thelastgallon wrote: post #358
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

If electricity is costly, it makes sense to put solar panels. Consolidate all energy (transportation - EV, HVAC - electric, induction stove, heat pump water heater), put solar panels, and wipe off all energy bills. Every household can save $400 - $800 on utility bills.

I’m not in New England but I’m imagining that the cold winters there are accompanied but plenty of cloudy skies as well. In that case solar might not be a great option.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#367

Post by torpid »

I live in an old furniture factory converted into lofts. LEED certified of course, with mini splits instead of forced air in each unit. This is in the midwest.

For the past 11 years, every season it's failed to maintain minimum temperature of 68 degrees when it hits below 5 degrees outside, or maintain cooling in the summer. Another adjacent building built 2 years after this one with the exact same setup, same story. The complex had resorted to providing residents temporary space heaters up until this year where now they are prohibited by the city from using it to maintain minimum temps thanks to changing the code.

The sheer amount of costs associated they've dumped into the maintenance of this mini split system, along with the electricity costs (electricity is included with rent) is mind boggling and certainly will offset any gains.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#368

Post by newZWhoDis »

oooyay wrote: post #254
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Yeah, I made this mistake this year. I pumped $20k into a heat pump system, coming from what used to be Natural Gas. I wasn't given any kind of relief because I live in Oregon where most relief is income based. Then at the beginning of the year PGE announced a 20% rate hike. My house is covered in trees, so solar isn't really an option. I really regretted my decision once I got a $300-$400 bill for heating three mont…

$20k for a heat pump is sky high, you better have gotten a 24 SEER2 state of the art fully variable system for that.

If they sold you a 14 SEER1 for that then you got absolutely screwed.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#369

Post by lkbm »

demondemidi wrote: post #334
Fuut wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just not true at all. Why do you even respond if you don't know enough about heat pumps?

Oh, sorry, I guess I was brainwashed by the "anti heat pump mafia". I had this conversation with three HVAC installers but according to this thread any HVAC installer that speaks ill of heatpumps is old and stupid. Recently, I stayed at an AirBNB recently that had a heatpump and the temps dropped during the deep freeze and it was running 100% of the time and failing. The AirBNB owner said it was brand new and I would…

Old heat pumps didn't do well in old temperatures. In the 80s and 90s, a heat pump couldn't handle freezing temps.

Modern heat pumps do fine well below 0 degrees Celsius. Here's one that's great to -15 C and okay down to -25 C[0]. If you search cold-climate heat pumps, you'll find plenty of information about how modern heat pumps are fine in most the temperatures you'll find in most of the US (including up north).

(I have heard that a lot of them are still only available in Europe, but you can definitely find some in the US.)

[0] https://carbonswitch.com/best-cold-climate-heat-pump/

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#370

Post by BobaFloutist »

lex-lightning wrote: post #198
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Alright, maybe I’m out of touch, but I don’t think electricity is expensive in California. Even during 115 degree heatwaves in a 70-year-old, 3-bedroom, single-family home. Most I paid was $100 in a month with 2 people with gaming computers working from home. Not everyone has that kind of money, but my point is that most people have cell service and other services which add up to more than electricity costs. That’s f…

That's because you're on SMUD, not PG&E, so you're not getting charged to cover the maintenance and liabilities of above-ground high-voltage power lines going into a forest on a mountain in the middle of nowhere.
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