Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#361

Post by justapassenger » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:02 PM UTC

neverrroot wrote: post #323

hospitalJail wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it was: >Company A is 2.5 hours of drive time >Company B is remote Pay is the same. lol I imagine that Company A will find some sucker, but instead of getting A+ workers that can realize company B> company A, they are going to get the leftover workers, their second choice. To be fair, leftover workers seem to stick around at a company for 10-20 years.

Wow, just wow. Calling someone a sucker for taking a job, without considering anything else. What about the top of the crop who live around the corner and prefer office over WFH for a clear separation between work and personal life?

Tech is full of people like OP. You got good paying job (because profession is hot) so you’re obviously smarter than everyone else, and your way of thinking and living is only right one.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#362

Post by caskstrength » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:03 PM UTC

brvsft wrote: post #256

bargle0 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, an hour spent commuting is an hour stolen from one’s children.

I am starting to use coworking spaces now because WFH has something of a toll on my family, primarily because kids are loud, and it can be frustrating to work while your loud kid is screaming in the next room without enough of a sound barrier to prevent you from hearing it. I'm not angry at my child, but sometimes I get upset with my wife for not preventing this, or for telling me it's not that loud when it is imposs…

What is your office like? The ones I've had dubious honor to work in is like you describe, but with dozens of noisy adult children in the same room with me, not the next one.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#363

Post by rebeccaskinner » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:05 PM UTC

allset_ wrote: post #105

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started managing a team with the “no meetings, let people do good work” philosophy and I can just say that I’m glad I was given the space as a new manager to find my feet, because I didn’t find that it worked well when taken to an extreme. Remote work offers very little structure. As someone who thrives on autonomy and chafes at process this always felt great to me, but a lot of people thrive with a bit of structur…

> 5 to 6 hours of standing meetings each week Wow that is a lot. That is (almost) a WHOLE DAY of meetings each week just for syncs. I can only provide my own anecdotes, but I'm at 0.5-1hr for standup status-report type meetings.

Everyone replying seems to be assuming this time is all for standups and status meetings, but in practice it’s probably about half an hour a week for status updates for us to. The rest of the time is a mix of reserved time for synchronous technical collaboration (e.g. reserved time for pairing, time to talk about technical architecture at a higher level and for people to opt in to presenting some of their work for feedback)

My team skews a bit junior right now, and I generally expect a pretty high degree of autonomy. We’re not a feature factory and people aren’t pulling tickets from a backlog mindlessly- I expect them to understand what they are building, why, talk to users, take ownership of a problem and exercise sound judgement. That requires some coordination. More senior people can handle that with less structure. For a highly competent but less experienced engineer I’ve found asking them to work mostly asynchronously was setting them up for failure. Giving the a bit of structure, making them available to one another to help themselves grow, and giving me more opportunities to recognize when I needed to intervene early has been successful.

For some teams it might feel like too many meetings, but that’s why I said that you need to pick what works for the specific team. Don’t cargo cult process and structure, but don’t be afraid of it when it can help either.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#364

Post by fulladder » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:06 PM UTC

bdw5204 wrote: post #278

intended wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add one major change that the work from home experiment has achieved - its made the opportunity cost of the work commute clear. This is a time cost paid for by the worker. As you stated, this is variable. If you have a short commute, or you like it, or you get some exercise - office is great. If you hate your commute, if its 3 hours in pollution and traffic - not so much. Earlier the position was that WFH was…

The solution to that problem is to count the travel time and any required breaks as part of work hours while also reimbursing all travel expenses. That would require employers to pay the full cost of unnecessary in-person work on both ends and would strongly disincentivize them from doing it. Employers reimbursing your travel expenses if they need you to travel to a conference on the other side of the country is alre…

One twist on your idea: why not give the employers some incentives to spread out more? For example, if they want you to live in a city center Monday through Friday, they should have to pay for your city housing. (If you want to own a house and go there on weekends, you can buy one independent of the employer.) This would cause employers to rethink the idea that they should be locating themselves in places like San Francisco or New York.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#365

Post by RestlessMind » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:06 PM UTC

rcbdev wrote: post #349

toomuchtodo wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shines where it can, doesn't work in most of the US. Public transit use: https://vividmaps.com/public-transportation-in-the-united-st... https://vividmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/public-tran... Population density: https://www.axios.com/2023/10/28/americans-moving-map-2022-f... https://www.axios.com/2023/01/31/cities-pandemic-moving-tren... https://www.axios.com/2023/09/14/where-america-stands

Thankfully the US is a major outlier in this aspect globally.

You need to get out of your bubble. After having traveled to more than 60 countries on all the continents (except Antarctica), I can assure you that a majority of humans do not have good reliable public transport. It is a luxury that only some parts of the world have.

Just as an example, right now I am in an Indian city where there is some minimal public transport but a majority of people need their own vehicle to commute for most of their journeys. And it is not an unusual scenario for India, which contains more population than Europe and North America combined.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#366

Post by caskstrength » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:06 PM UTC

raxxorraxor wrote: post #218

intended wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add one major change that the work from home experiment has achieved - its made the opportunity cost of the work commute clear. This is a time cost paid for by the worker. As you stated, this is variable. If you have a short commute, or you like it, or you get some exercise - office is great. If you hate your commute, if its 3 hours in pollution and traffic - not so much. Earlier the position was that WFH was…

I absolutely let my employer pay for my commute. Indirectly of course, but my income requirements are dependent on how much hours I have to put into work, which includes my overall time investment. Same with all other costs I have because of work. That said, time is important to me and I have a 5min commute, 20min if I walk. For that reason I do prefer the office. Better meals and better coffee and nice colleagues. I…

Usually office coffee sucks though. Do you have real manual espresso machine in the office and a person who is responsible for operating and regularly cleaning it? The automatic kind with "americano" and "espresso" buttons can't really make a good coffee.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#367

Post by scaryclam » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:07 PM UTC

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #82

2d8a875f-39a2-4 wrote: post #59

It was never about productivity. It was about power and control. And commercial real estate investments.

How is this about real state investment?

This is something that gets trotted out every time this topic comes up. It's got little to do with the actual conversation, and it only relevant to some companies.

Basically, some companies own buildings that need to be leased out and some companies have long leases which would mean money "down the drain" if they're not utilised. That's wrapped up to equate being told to come into the office as a profit driven thing, rather than a productivity driven thing. As a blanket statement it's not true as not all companies care about it, and when we're talking just about productivity, it's irrelevant as it's not actually a consideration.

If we're talking about motivations for coming back into the office, then sure, it's a very relevant topic there.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#368

Post by Novosell » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:08 PM UTC

zer0tonin wrote: post #310

pc86 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 minutes is not significant.

15 * 2 minutes a day 5 times a week is 100h+ by the end of the year

130h a year, assuming you work 5 days every week and that every commute is exactly 15min.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#369

Post by coldpie » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:09 PM UTC

Seacant wrote: post #321

coldpie wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How could remote work not be more productive? When I had to WFH for a year during COVID, my productivity completely plummeted, almost to zero. It was very hard for me to be actually productive for more than 60-120 minutes each day. I could be playing video games or guitar, or watching videos, or petting my cats, or doing dishes, or cooking, or going for a walk. Instead I have to sit at this desk and do work? Ehh...…

This mirrors the issue I had with work from home to a tee. During the pandemic, as soon as it was safe, I went into a ghost town of an office right up until they sold the building and made us all permanently work from home. I was eventually able to find that coffee shops filled a similar function for me, and now spend a majority of my productive workday at one. (Same disclaimer as parent - everyone works differently)

> they sold the building and made us all permanently work from home

I do think about this. I think my current workplace office has enough people that this isn't likely, but if they did get rid of it, I guess I'd try to find some co-working facility and see how that feels. More likely though, I'd quit and find some other job that does have a local office.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#370

Post by lacrimacida » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:10 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #354

intended wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add one major change that the work from home experiment has achieved - its made the opportunity cost of the work commute clear. This is a time cost paid for by the worker. As you stated, this is variable. If you have a short commute, or you like it, or you get some exercise - office is great. If you hate your commute, if its 3 hours in pollution and traffic - not so much. Earlier the position was that WFH was…

I've generally had a 30-40min commute most of my career, but also generally had a flexible enough start time that exact to the minute arrival at my desk was not performance impacting. Unfortunately a lot of things conflate over time as you become more senior to generally make your commute worse. For me - my last 2 roles have earlier required start time, with a hard start (morning meeting / standup / L3 support presen…

> For me I'd rather work 11-12 hours/day at home then go into office

How sustainable is to work 11-12 hours a day though? If we do 5 hours of intense work and the rest is spent in meetings or other overhead activities make 8 hours just enough to make it sustainable over long periods of time…