Generation Junk • Hacker News Board

Re: Generation Junk

#361

Post by jdietrich » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 1:51 PM UTC

kristov wrote: post #358

Assuming old stuff is more durable than new stuff: I wonder why older stuff was made to a higher standard? If people had less disposable income back then, why wasnt there an incentive to make low quality cheaper things? One possible reason is that it's technically difficult to build something that is just strong enough. In the past they were unable predict the failure moment to an accurate degree, so they over engine…

>One possible reason is that it's technically difficult to build something that is just strong enough. In the past they were unable predict the failure moment to an accurate degree, so they over engineered everything.

That's mostly the right answer. Value engineering is a complex and constantly evolving discipline, with the most important advance being the proliferation of injection-molded plastics in the 1970s - a single injection-molded part can replace dozens of more expensive pressed, cast or machined parts, albeit often with a reduction in durability.

The other crucial factor is simply attrition bias - the past was full of terrible stuff, we just don't see most of it because it broke and went to landfill.

Re: Generation Junk

#362

Post by jet_32951 » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #329

CobaltFire wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are brands built to super high standards, but no-one wants to pay for them or deal with their compromises. We have been buying Miele appliances, and have nothing but excellent experiences. They aren't cheap, but the general opinion I've seen online is that they are one of the few brands that build quality modern appliances. My experiences would tend to back that up. Specific to the Miele washer and dryer, we ha…

Miele and Bosch are the only brands I'll rely on for "white goods". As far as I can tell, most other (european) brands are owned by Electrolux, and all built to fail the day after the warranty expires. My toaster is a Dualit - pricey, but very reliable, and very repairable. My coffee grinder is a manually-cranked burr grinder made of aluminium. There's nothing to fail (and I don't mind cranking for a minute in the mo…

That's my metric. A VF display is OK but an LCD, especially on kitchen appliances or white goods, is just about a guarantee of a short life span - never mind a touchscreen.

Re: Generation Junk

#363

Post by apothegm » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

jacobkg wrote: post #34

TehShrike wrote: post #2

This feels like something that could be ameliorated by trustworthy curation, but The Wirecutter hasn't given good signal for years now, if it ever did, and I haven't seen anything else yet. Maybe I should try paying for Consumer Reports

Wirecutter is definitely hit and miss but I will say that their upgrade pick for towels (Riley Home) are phenomenal and have held up to everyday use for 3 years and counting: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-bath-towel/

It’s a little sad, though, that it’s now impressive for a towel to last 3 years. The ones my parents bought in 1986 are still in my rotation for everyday use and holding up better than the set I bought (not cheaply) in 2010, which are starting to look like they need replacement.

Re: Generation Junk

#364

Post by detourdog » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 2:00 PM UTC

woopwoop wrote: post #12

So this article implies that a number of things that we buy previously were built to last longer, and indeed did last longer. The first few examples are kitchen appliances. In this case I don't really know, but I'm at least willing to listen. Ultimately the evidence is people responding to a thread on Twitter where he solicited complaints. Not so compelling. But then he mentions a "hybrid sedan". Here I'm aware of th…

I used my parents 30 year wedding present Maytag as a washing machine. It never really broke I just finally got a new one. I'm sure it was used from 1960 until about 1995.

Re: Generation Junk

#365

Post by twodave » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 2:04 PM UTC

boring_twenties wrote: post #142

twodave wrote: post #17

At least as far as coffee grinders go, find a reputable company that will repair them. My Baratza Encore stopped working after about a year or two of operation, and I sent it in for repairs. It was probably just a small short somewhere, but I'm not an electrician. They sent it back to me after a week or so, cleaned inside and out and working better than new. I keep saying I'm going to replace it with the one from Fel…

My friend has a Fellow grinder and I honestly can't stand it. It takes about 5 or 6 iterations to get all the grounds out. It looks sleeker, and would match all the other Fellow stuff I have, but is too frustrating to use, even if it were free. As to your Encore, if you feel like a cheap upgrade you could replace your cone burr with the M2 from the slightly more expensive Virtuoso model. It's a drop-in replacement, h…

Thanks for the advice! I can probably handle that kind of an upgrade. I just don’t know enough about electrical to diagnose/fix those kinds of issues

Re: Generation Junk

#366

Post by cracrecry » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 2:05 PM UTC

Today you can buy a Miele household appliance. A liebherr fridge. A Dyson vacuum cleaner(I bought mine like 20 years ago and works like the first day).

People can buy a stainless steel drum washing machine, or you can buy it in injection molded plastic. Most people buy the plastic one, because the other is much more expensive.

Fair enough, the only problem is that you see the person who bought one with the plastic drum complaining about how it broke after warrantee period is over.

People want things to last forever and be cheap, and that is not possible. Making an stainless steel part is way way more difficult and expensive that doing a plastic mold, and is not mass produced as much because most people do not want to pay it.

Re: Generation Junk

#367

Post by tgtweak » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 2:05 PM UTC

Yes, obviously, but why?

Good products are still out there but there are very few trustworthy sources of reviews that actually test the durability. Project farm comes to mind as a rare example. Consumer reports does a decent job but puts it behind a paywall.

Re: Generation Junk

#368

Post by Too » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 2:08 PM UTC

woopwoop wrote: post #12

So this article implies that a number of things that we buy previously were built to last longer, and indeed did last longer. The first few examples are kitchen appliances. In this case I don't really know, but I'm at least willing to listen. Ultimately the evidence is people responding to a thread on Twitter where he solicited complaints. Not so compelling. But then he mentions a "hybrid sedan". Here I'm aware of th…

From [1]: ”after three years of ownership”

While I generally agree with you, that data isn’t very conclusive.

JD powers also need to be read carefully to not put all problems in the same basket. Malfunctioning engine vs “Bluetooth pairing was laggy with my 8 year old android phone” can be counted in same basket if you don’t look carefully.

This brings us to the next thing which is that both expectation and complexity on todays cars are thousand times higher than 20 years ago, both from customers and emission agencies. Given that, it’s amazing how well they still work. Often better than older models.

This puts cars in its own exceptional category that is much more difficult to compare. Where’s a freakin juicer, a ballpoint pen or a pair of gloves has no additional expectations today compared to 1940. They just got worse.

Re: Generation Junk

#369

Post by kibwen » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

tgtweak wrote: post #367

Yes, obviously, but why? Good products are still out there but there are very few trustworthy sources of reviews that actually test the durability. Project farm comes to mind as a rare example. Consumer reports does a decent job but puts it behind a paywall.

> Yes, obviously, but why?

Because Adam Smith's invisible hand has torn the veil away from our faces and revealed that humans are so piss-poor at long-term thinking that we'll happily pay ten cents less for a washing machine that breaks down twice as quickly.

Even ideal markets don't optimize for quality, they optimize for utility. And the revealed preference of the human utility function is "penny wise, pound foolish".

Re: Generation Junk

#370

Post by nextworddev » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 2:17 PM UTC

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #68

I’ve had to buy a lot of furniture and other things for my new house this year, and one of the things that really sticks out to me is that practically every category of product seems to be split into a bimodal distribution: cheap crap & luxury boutique. There are practically no entries occupying the middle of the market that are on the basic end regarding features & frills but also high-quality. It’s incredibly annoy…

Isn’t that what CB2 is? Medium category