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How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

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Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#361

Post by n0n0n4t0r »

nicbou wrote: post #326
n0n0n4t0r wrote: post #318

Hello, I'm a french (non Parisian) reader, and was very surprised by the comments I read. More precisely, the near 100% percent agreement on "french are despising non native speakers, especially the Parisians". I really don't feel it this way and am so surprised. I don't have more to add since I really never thought about this. Speaking of English: I work in an international company since one year and am I the proces…

I'm not surprised. I'm from Quebec. I am more comfortable speaking English with anyone than I am speaking French around French people. They just can't get over the accent, like I'm some sort of curiosity at the zoo. There are so many YouTube videos of French people mocking us. It's not curiosity but a distinctly French superiority complex. My friends who learned French had similar struggles in France versus elsewhere…

Now that you say it: some decades ago there was a racist tendency in France where people where having fun of others accent.

They where having fun of the southern marseillais accent, but also of the northern ch'ti accent, they also had extra fun of African or Quebec's accent indeed.

I, as a child, did imitated those accent for fun. I now regret it, bit it's still in the roots of a lot of people.

I sometimes fear that racism is predominant in french society.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#362

Post by watwut »

n0n0n4t0r wrote: post #359
kbrkbr wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "french are despising non native speakers, especially the Parisians" I don't judge if this is right or wrong, but I lived in south west of Germany for a while, where they teach French starting in primary school. Among the people there this is a common concept.

Yes, reading from all the comments here, this seems like a fact! I'll have my own introspection in order to try to detect/avoid such a behavior if I do have it!

For whatever it is worth, I had actually good experiences in France including in Paris. Or, basically normal one, not really different from trying to get around Germany.

I suspect that French are unfriendly meme has taken life on its own. People complain when the French switches to English for them, they complain when the French speaks more slowly and simplifies the language, they complain when the French does not simplify for them.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#363

Post by throw_away7653 »

adev_ wrote: post #192
grecy wrote: post #11

Learning French while exploring West Africa was enormously good fun. For most people it's their 3rd or 4th or 5th language, and they were always so full of joy and happiness than I was trying my best. Nobody ever corrected my pronunciation or criticized me for my bad grammar and lack of vocabulary. (Cough, France, Cough). Thanks to all the encouragement and positivity I picked it up pretty quickly, and thoroughly enj…

> For most people it's their 3rd or 4th or 5th language, and they were always so full of joy and happiness than I was trying my best. I think this is currently pretty typical in any language. In my experience, Non-native speakers are much more resilient to strong accents and broken grammar. Probably because they passed themselves by this step. I worked in a research laboratory with >100 nationalities: It was extremel…

I have the same experience. For some reason, native English speakers struggle more.

Americans seem to struggle more than Brits. Perhaps it's because people in the UK are more used to strong Brittish accents and foreigners

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#364

Post by pxc »

vlovich123 wrote: post #224
OnlyMortal wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I met French speaking Quebecois in Paris. They were complaining the Parisians didn’t understand them. They weren’t enamoured to France.

All my teachers in French throughout middle school and university (Canada) were France French. In college, my first TA was Quebecois French & it took me a few classes before I actually started understanding what she was saying. It’s a very difficult accent and I don’t think it’s a snobbery thing - just requires extended exposure. By comparison Quebecois seem to more easily understand France French whether it’s becaus…

I studied French French in school and eventually got to a point where I could follow along a bit to TV or music and have simple conversations. I remember Quebecois French being totally incomprehensible to me, though.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#365

Post by PeterStuer »

Tade0 wrote: post #351
PeterStuer wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the EU, especially EU administration, we have evolved a Euro-English dialect. It is mostly English, but with some typical European (French, German, Italian and Greek mostly) pronounciations and phrasings. Btw, Whisper has no trouble transcribing Euro-English, even with thick accents and very fast (Italian) delivery.

Makes me wonder if the word "ananas" and 24h time was already incorporated to it.

24h definitely. Ananas is not so commonly used, but in informal speech, yes, as pineapple is also ananas in most of the EU languages (not in Spanish).

Fruit regulation would typically use a more formal (sub)species nomenclature like 'Ananas comosus'.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#366

Post by ffgjgf1 »

Bayart wrote: post #339
carlmr wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quebec French is very different though. It's like Swiss German and German, the Swiss understand the Germans, but not the other way around. It's not just the accent, it's the choice of words, the enunciation, everything.

Hardly. Swiss German and Standard High German are entirely different languages, despite what the name would lead you to think. Quebec French is at most a dialect of French. There's as much different as there is between say RP English and Scottish English.

To be fair Scots was/is an actual language. Scottish English isn’t it but it certainly was heavily influenced by Scots. In all the three cases you’ve mentioned it’s a spectrum.

The distinction between a language and a dialect is not clear at all. e.g. while it wouldn’t be correct to call Swiss-German a dialect of standard German both languages are German Dialects.

> Quebec French is at most a dialect of French.

Yes it’s a dialect of French, it’s not a dialect or accent of standard French.

There is nothing special about Standard German or French besides the fact that they are dialects which have outcompeted all other dialects of those languages to a less or more successful degree due to entirely political and economical reasons.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#367

Post by throw_away7653 »

hnarn wrote: post #314
quickthrower2 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Swearing in foreign language is just a word woth another meaning. I don't think so. Swear word is a swear word. It feels just as taboo to me.

That’s just partly true. While non-native speakers obviously recognize that something is a swear word, without immersion it’s often hard to gauge how it will be perceived by native speakers, simply because you don’t meet many, or any, to get reactions from. I’m a non native speaker and it wasn’t until University when I met actual Americans that I realized my swearing could be ear-curling from time to time — I simply…

As a Norwegian, we also have swear words that are not that bad. The problem is that the closest translation is often "fuck". So if you meet a Norwegian, don't be surprised if they drop the f-bomb frequently in business meetings. Many are not aware of the social context.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#368

Post by ffgjgf1 »

BSDobelix wrote: post #356
Bayart wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly. Swiss German and Standard High German are entirely different languages, despite what the name would lead you to think. Quebec French is at most a dialect of French. There's as much different as there is between say RP English and Scottish English.

>Swiss German and Standard High German are entirely different languages Not a different language but a dialect-group within high german called Alemanic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German Also interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages

Based on that definition Dutch also wouldn’t be a different language but a dialect within High German called Franconian.

Now try telling Dutch people that they don’t actually have their own language and are all speaking Low Country German and see what happens…

Most distinctions between dialects and languages are socio-political and not linguistic.

There is a similar continuum between North/Low German and Frisian. Yet you cross a border and just like Dutch/Franconian it’s no longer a dialect but a different language.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#369

Post by michaelscott »

n0n0n4t0r wrote: post #318

Hello, I'm a french (non Parisian) reader, and was very surprised by the comments I read. More precisely, the near 100% percent agreement on "french are despising non native speakers, especially the Parisians". I really don't feel it this way and am so surprised. I don't have more to add since I really never thought about this. Speaking of English: I work in an international company since one year and am I the proces…

Fwiw my own experience in France, even in Paris, was mixed. A number of people refused to speak French with me (although my French was terrible, it's true), while others were either highly encouraging and complimentary, or were content to at least try and speak with me. I've never encountered anyone overtly rude.

I realised the "refusing to understand" attitude in French is not out of malice, but simply because the structure of French as a language is highly dependent on pronunciation. So pronouncing words slightly incorrectly either changes the meaning completely, or creates a situation where multiple different interpretations are possible.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#370

Post by BrandoElFollito »

glandium wrote: post #343
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Phonetically, it's easy. "ça va quoi" ies, but stil anoing This said, I am all for a simplification of French, esperanto-style, to make it easier for everyone (native and non-native users of French) > > vzy cr > vas-y... you lost me here. crève? It was "vas-y carré", which in English means "go ahead, all good". I do not blame you for not knowing, I had to check twice. > I guess you're thinking about things like "qu…

> This said, I am all for a simplification of French Interestingly, they tried 15 or 20 years ago, and that went nowhere. The only thing I remember about it is they wanted to simplify oignon, but I don't even remember if they suggested removing the i or spelling it like in English. > It was "vas-y carré" I guess I'm too old to know this, even non abbreviated. > sometimes one r, sometimes two, sometimes one l, sometim…

> Interestingly, they tried 15 or 20 years ago, and that went nowhere

I guess you are talking about the 1990 reform. I would not say that it went nowhere, most of the changes are now in the school curriculum.

This is far from the radical simplification I have in mind, though :)

> I guess I'm too old to know this, even non abbreviated.

It helps to have a teenager at home and a need to communicate with them through WhatsApp

> The "fun" part of living abroad and barely speaking or writing French is that now there are plenty of times where I can't find words or how to spell them

I left France for about 25 years and when I got back, I realized I lost my French accent. Today people are trying to pinpoint the place I am from, sometimes it is Belgium, sometimes Switzerland. I am from the western suburbs of Paris...

Do not worry: I sometimes have problems spelling words even though I was always very good in grammar and vocabulary, and the words I struggle with are sometimes obvious. Google helps to fix that (I type what I think is the word and it asks me "do you mean ...").

>

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