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Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

electrek.co

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Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#361

Post by aftbit »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #197
aftbit wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure maintenance costs are really the relevant part. It seems like the problem is that Teslas are cheaper now and thus Hertz's fleet is worth less than it was before. Additionally, they find that Teslas suffer more damage, likely from collisions or similar. Routine maintenance costs are not mentioned in that article at all. >In short, the declining value of the Tesla cars in Hertz’s fleet—a decline directly c…

Sucks to be them, but then maybe they should have listened to Musk when in the very beginning of Tesla he said the goal was to make EVs cheap ?

Well if we're talking about Musk-whisperers, they clearly preferred to listen to him when he said that Teslas would be appreciating assets, rather than that.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#362

Post by aftbit »

lttlrck wrote: post #241
aftbit wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure they are all dumb enough for this. This is why people can steal (modern) cars by ripping a headlight out and accessing the CAN bus through the gap. https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ AIUI the military uses "CAN bus firewalls" to prevent this. There is also some sort of encrypted/authenticated CAN bus protocol in the works. Neither are common in production cars as of 2022 or so, tho…

Encrypted/authenticated CAN sounds like "Apple component pairing coming to car near you". No thanks.

Honestly we need a law that says that _all_ keys used in your car (software and physical) need to be given to you. This should include the keys to sign the updates, manage the CAN networks, etc.

Even ignoring the automaker lobby's inevitable opposition, this would never happen because one could use it to defeat things like emissions controls or the coming anti-impairment technology[1].

1: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-joe-biden-te...

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#363

Post by post_break »

r00fus wrote: post #219
post_break wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fords approach is flawed however. You can still update sync with a bad update and bork it over usb. Ask me how I know.

Pray tell, how painful was your discovery?

Thankfully I was able to repackage it again and flash an upgrade and it unborked itself.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#364

Post by psychlops »

latchkey wrote: post #284
psychlops wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked on 25K machines, I can assure you that it never deployed to every single machine and failed to do so in interesting ways all the time.

It always deployed. It was eventually consistent. Any failure would automatically be resolved after a period of time.

Interesting. At any point in time, I had errors from hardware, software and networking. Even the racks would be getting overwhelmed at certain times. Simply being able to ssh into every host wasn't guaranteed. I'm not sure how you did it.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#365

Post by postalrat »

jrumbut wrote: post #332
onion2k wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws of physics are definitely very challenging. If you've got a solution please write a blog post.

No blog post required! You just install the whole app on a dedicated piece of hardware on site. But then deployment becomes more challenging ;)

Those deployments are called PWAs.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#366

Post by worik »

LastMuel wrote: post #206
worik wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What amazes me is that any grown up person thinks it is a good idea to update vehicles as if they were telephones Owners should have to bring the vehicle into a shop to have changes made, and they should be very rare. This lazy, control freakery of the worst kind Something very bad is going on happen and people will die before we realize that it is a stupid dangerous practice

On the other hand, we update irreplaceable spacecraft billions of miles away with new software. It should be fine to push software updates out, as long as the correct safety and fallback procedures are in place. It simply has to be designed to handle failure and procedures need to be in place to mitigate risks. It sounds like that wasn't the case here. Also, why wouldn't you have a small initial release pool when you…

If Ford or Nissan want to invest as much in ms as NASA does in Voyager....

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#367

Post by worik »

fargle wrote: post #324
worik wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What amazes me is that any grown up person thinks it is a good idea to update vehicles as if they were telephones Owners should have to bring the vehicle into a shop to have changes made, and they should be very rare. This lazy, control freakery of the worst kind Something very bad is going on happen and people will die before we realize that it is a stupid dangerous practice

> What amazes me is that any grown up person thinks it is a good idea to update vehicles as if they were telephones What amazes me is that any grown up person thinks it is a good idea to update telephones as if they were software and not phones. Or rather that it is a good idea to have phones that need updates? Either way, we're all one 1/2 assed push update to a fridge, vacuum, washing machine, phone or car away fro…

Toucè

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#368

Post by code_runner »

xienze wrote: post #223
code_runner wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to do this once or twice (its very very infrequent in my experience) and one time it was genuinely terrifying, as I had lost blinkers etc where a few interstates all intersect and merge etc. I still do love the car though.... but a very sketchy moment that I shouldn't have brought on myself while driving in that situation.

> I had to do this once or twice (its very very infrequent in my experience) This is something that’s _never_ supposed to happen. > but a very sketchy moment that I shouldn't have brought on myself while driving in that situation. How on earth can you rationalize a Tesla performing an update/hard reset while driving as _your_ fault? It should never be allowed to happen!

it didn't initiate it, I did. I should've waited like..... 30 seconds or until I was stopped quite honestly. I'm fully aware of how the vehicle operates and I would consider myself solely responsible for initiating the reboot.

That said, it was weird that the blinkers didn't work, but it may be that the sound in the cabin wasn't playing and the blinkers were just fine... and in hindsight thats probably accurate.

Point being, I picked literally the worst place to do that reboot. I would consider the need for the reboot in that situation to be on tesla maybe, but the choice to perform it when I did was solely on me.

I dislike elon as much as the next person (i like to think more, but some people definitely me beat).... but the car is solid... i just never thought i'd say "i need to reboot my car's computer"

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#369

Post by code_runner »

pcchristie wrote: post #305
xienze wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had to do this once or twice (its very very infrequent in my experience) This is something that’s _never_ supposed to happen. > but a very sketchy moment that I shouldn't have brought on myself while driving in that situation. How on earth can you rationalize a Tesla performing an update/hard reset while driving as _your_ fault? It should never be allowed to happen!

Tesla doesn't do that, you're misunderstanding. You can do a hart reboot on the computer by yourself, by holding down both steering will scroll wheels for 10 seconds. Fixes any glitches with the screen.

this is correct

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#370

Post by gunapologist99 »

sbehere wrote: post #359
gunapologist99 wrote: post #222

This is why I don't really want my car to have any antenna (that receives/interprets code) or receive OTA updates, ever. I'd like to please force any attackers to at least be within 50 feet of my TPMS, instead of being literally anywhere on the planet. A car doesn't need data updates, and definitely not code updates[1] 1. source: every car built in previous century.

> A car doesn't need data updates, and definitely not code updates I don't think this is accurate. Many advanced driving assistance capabilities need access to updated map tiles, which is a data update. They may need code updates to fix errors or shortcomings that can be detected only after deployment on extensive fleets or in response to changes to the environment/infrastructure. This is just one example for why dat…

> Many advanced driving assistance capabilities need access to updated map tiles

Your phone (or GPS or even a paper map) can guide you; none of the following need access to map tiles:

* forward collision warning

* automatic emergency braking

* lane departure warning

* adaptive cruise control

* blind spot detection

* stability control

> code updates to fix errors or shortcomings

That's what recalls and TSBs have traditionally been for, and the driver can refuse them if desired. I mean, actual lives are at stake here. Would we (or should we) allow 737's to get OTA updates? Of course not. The target is too valuable and surface area too vast to adequately protect it.

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