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HTML First

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Re: HTML First

#361

Post by couchand »

1shooner wrote: post #282
dartos wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by component-level tokens, but it sounds like tailwind’s themes do what you’re saying. Most of tailwind’s classes use css variables under the hood, so setting some of those variables in a class and apply thing that class to the top level element of a component will do the trick. But you could have an “extraClasses” prop with tailwind. Classes that appear later in a class attribute…

A component level token would be if your `myCard` component populated all of it's styles with component-specific css-variables, e.g. "myCard-bg", "myCard-padding". It's basically defining the styling api for your component. If you have a new variant that needs to style another property, then you should probably extend your component's style api accordingly (by defining a new component token and providing the default)…

The Salesforce Lightning Design System makes extensive use of this technique; they call them "styling hooks". https://www.lightningdesignsystem.com/platforms/lightning/st...

Re: HTML First

#362

Post by Devasta »

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #69

HTML should have been improved by now. What is sad is that fundamental things like a put request through a form can't still be done by simply a method. Keeping html hobbled is literally a conspiracy.

https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10671#c16

It doesn't make sense that you would want to PUT a form apparently.

Re: HTML First

#363

Post by shadowgovt »

zilti wrote: post #302
zztop44 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But very often it is software development. And there isn’t always some bright line between them. Like it or not, the web is an excellent platform for delivering software applications to users, especially one-off or infrequently used applications. Let’s use software development tools, rather than web publishing tools, to develop that software.

Hopefully WASM will fill that area, and browsers can go back to being browsers.

Not as long as the only way that wasm interfaces to the DOM is through the JavaScript layer.

Re: HTML First

#364

Post by andai »

mlhpdx wrote: post #105
andai wrote: post #86

The main thesis seems to be that the user should be able to press View Source and understand what's going on. I agree, at least for web sites . For web apps , at least anything over 50 lines, you are probably going to want to use a typed language. (Well, you could technically use .js with TypeScript compiler and type annotations in special comments but I did not find that very pleasant.) I used to be really big on th…

I don’t believe the author is advocating for single file systems, but I don’t want to speak for them.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply this! My original comment had "I even go so far as to..." but it got lost somewhere in editing.

Re: HTML First

#365

Post by ozim »

tabacitu wrote: post #145
codeptualize wrote: post #89

This is fun in to theory and in simple examples, but show me a big project that applies this and how it made a difference. There are some bold objectives at the start that would be wonderful, but I’m a bit disappointed by the advice. I really don’t see how these would work in anything other than very basic scenarios, even less how they would achieve the objectives. I’m all for using the web platform to the max, and I…

Why? Why does it need to be good for big projects in order to be good practice? I’m genuinely asking. I never understood this argument that people bring. In my view, the web is 95% small to medium projects. Most technologies should be focused on that - simple solutions for simple projectS. Add complexity later.

I would say that explaining where guidelines are applicable is on author side.

For text at hand I understand that author expects this way should be “the best” for everyone.

Then author gives examples that even in medium project at first requirement change or first additional non-trivial rule are going to have 2-way bindings plus bunch of other plumbing implemented where “html first” doesn’t have it and someone will have to write some JS monster to handle state etc.

Re: HTML First

#366

Post by nonethewiser »

tabacitu wrote: post #145
codeptualize wrote: post #89

This is fun in to theory and in simple examples, but show me a big project that applies this and how it made a difference. There are some bold objectives at the start that would be wonderful, but I’m a bit disappointed by the advice. I really don’t see how these would work in anything other than very basic scenarios, even less how they would achieve the objectives. I’m all for using the web platform to the max, and I…

Why? Why does it need to be good for big projects in order to be good practice? I’m genuinely asking. I never understood this argument that people bring. In my view, the web is 95% small to medium projects. Most technologies should be focused on that - simple solutions for simple projectS. Add complexity later.

> In my view, the web is 95% small to medium projects.

In what terms? Sites in existence? I suppose. But sites by usage? Virtually all huge.

Re: HTML First

#367

Post by andai »

xg15 wrote: post #189
andai wrote: post #86

The main thesis seems to be that the user should be able to press View Source and understand what's going on. I agree, at least for web sites . For web apps , at least anything over 50 lines, you are probably going to want to use a typed language. (Well, you could technically use .js with TypeScript compiler and type annotations in special comments but I did not find that very pleasant.) I used to be really big on th…

I'm sceptical on this: by now there are lots of ways to "peek behind the curtain" in the developer panel: we have the DOM view, network tab, heap view, built-in javascript prettifyer. Sure, "view source" is still important, but I'd question if its importance is still as absolute as the HTMX people make it out to be.

I wanted to show people how easy it is to do cool things with a computer, how low the barrier to entry is.* One HTML file. Your OS's built in text editor and browser. You look at the code and you can see it there in front of you! It isn't obfuscated. It isn't even minified. Everything is right there, all together. You can just save the file and drag it onto your browser. No Git, no zipped project folders. No build system! No server! (No MIME type errors!).

The "frictionlessness" of lowering the "activation energy", is not just nice for beginners... heck, it's nice for me! I can just download this file from Wayback Machine and continue hacking on it!

It does, of course, limit you to very small codebases, but that's what I like! Many small projects. The spring physics creature linked above is about 300 LOC total. The ASCII bonsai tree is ~100: https://web.archive.org/web/20220823113003id_/https://andai....

*In terms of tooling/setup, at least! Learning to code is another matter... (Neither of these projects are very readable for a beginner though, so that aspect needs some work.)

Re: HTML First

#368

Post by al_borland »

codeptualize wrote: post #89

This is fun in to theory and in simple examples, but show me a big project that applies this and how it made a difference. There are some bold objectives at the start that would be wonderful, but I’m a bit disappointed by the advice. I really don’t see how these would work in anything other than very basic scenarios, even less how they would achieve the objectives. I’m all for using the web platform to the max, and I…

Too many people today are being pointed toward React to do very simple things, like a single-page site that is nothing more than a little text, some images, and a few links out to various other places. These sites could easily be HTML/CSS. There is a lot of complexity for the sake of complexity on the web right now.

Re: HTML First

#369

Post by tipiirai »

moritzwarhier wrote: post #39
varun_ch wrote: post #34

While I agree with most of the arguments here, this article feels a little contradictory - it recommends Tailwind but also tells us to 'stay clear of build steps'. Shipping massive CSS/JS resources goes against the whole inclusivity principle - many people don't have super fast internet connections or powerful enough computers..

I don't use Tailwind anymore at the moment, but in my experience, it does not lead to shipping massive CSS/JS resources. In fact I don't know about any client-side JS at all that is emitted by Tailwind (my last experience was 2.x, not sure if anything has changed). Regarding the CSS size, my experience was the opposite, Tailwind output was usually a lot smaller than hand-written CSS. I have nothing against plain CSS…

> Tailwind output was usually a lot smaller than hand-written CSS:

Tailwind output is massively bigger than the one with semantic CSS. Here's a comparison:

https://nuejs.org/blog/tailwind-vs-semantic-css/

Re: HTML First

#370

Post by DangitBobby »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #324
RoddaWallPro wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"shift/control-clicking to get multiple things is a flat no-go from a UX perspective" - Do you mean that this is NOT how you should do multiselects? If that is what you mean, then how _do_ you do them? If I have a list of items and I want to select 10 or 15 of them in a row, I currently don't know of a better UI to do that with than shift+click.

Yeah, shift/control-click is a longstanding workflow for multiselect and macOS, Linux and windows all support it with various platform-specific subtleties. The worst part of the web is losing all these sorts of features because some web designer thinks they’re a “bad UX”

Present a form with a 25 item native multiselect to 10 of your non-prgrammer family members. Ask them to perform two tasks:

- Select 5 non-adjacent items

- Select 5 adjacent items.

Report back with success rates.

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