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Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

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361–370 of 386 posts

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why the "at reasonable scale" is presumed. What happens if I reject that presumption? Why do we assume "millions of people" operating in the same social order is a good thing? Because iphones? Is that reason enough? Do we presume that having millions of people under the same social order is required to make advancements in medicine? It didn't take millions to build Linux or wikipedia, just a couple…

I was thinking of millions, because that's the order of magnitude of the educational system. You could give examples of groups of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands instead if you like. I'm just trying to set a reasonable lower bound for a "society" as a opposed to a small group. Lots of organizational structures work for small groups, but break down when applied to larger ones. What are some of those example…

> Lots of organizational structures work for small groups, but break down when applied to larger ones

A key feature of many early human organizational structures was flexibility and creativity. Maybe it's time to do some more experiments. The current structure doesn't really permit that, which is a shame.

Anyway some examples come from Native Americans. One of the arguments in the book is that this idea that social complexity necessitates inequity is false and that its origins are the meeting of Europeans and native Americans. People like Kondiaronk, as depicted by an explorer whose writings disseminated extensively, had deep critiques of the European system of organization, specifically it's focus on profit motive, its punitive justice system, patriarchy, and hierarchies. The enlightenment defense was to cast the egalitarian lives of the native Americans as naive, youthful, ignorant, undeveloped etc. Notice in this thread many doing the same - "sure they were egalitarian, they lived in the stone age!" The book rejects that social inequity is a requirement to leave the stone age.

"Ok but you need hierarchy once you leave society the size of a tribe of 200 people," nope not really, they demonstrate how Teotihuacan started with a rigid hierarchy and transformed itself into an egalitarian society, demonstrating that dense urban society doesn't require inequity and also demonstrating that we can have flexible social systems.

Anyway the book offers no solution, just reflects on three major losses to our global society that we should consider investigating further: the freedom to move away, the freedom to disobey arbitrary authority, and the freedom to experiment with fluidic social structures.

Imo the current social order has already broken down. There's a class of people on this earth that wield unfathomable resources (billionaires). Throughout human history I can think of only a few individuals that had that kind of power, and they at least were responsible for running empires lest they be torn apart suddenly by a mob. Yet today we have thousands. We also seem to have created simple artificial intelligence algorithms/hiveminds and propped them up as infallible and immune-to-ethics (you gonna blame Shell for turning a profit?), and are slowly letting them supplant our liberal democracies as our new rulers (through lobbying and the like) (try to start your own ISP in certain cities).

I feel like it's as valid to say "we just shouldn't try to encapsulate tens of millions under the same social order, it leads to suffering" as it is to say "in tribes there are no iphones." We don't really know, do we? We can't really experiment anymore, can we?

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#362
post #322

"We don’t need to sort and classify 18-year olds. It’s absurd. Stop trying to fix it and get rid of it." Would the OP make the same argument about athletics? That 18-year-old Cristiano Ronaldo and 18-year-old Frankie Fatass, instead of being sorted and classified, should be put into the same soccer program?

Which soccer program are you referring to? At age 18, Cristiano Ronaldo was not attending a nonprofit school, he was a member of a for-profit professional team.

Yes, differences between 18 year olds are extreme when you look at the best vs. the average

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#363
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which soccer program are you referring to? At age 18, Cristiano Ronaldo was not attending a nonprofit school, he was a member of a for-profit professional team.

Yes, differences between 18 year olds are extreme when you look at the best vs. the average

You didn't answer my question.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#364

I find the Harvard angst interesting. I’ve never once felt someone else going to Harvard impacted my life in any way whatsoever. I’ve advanced further than everyone I know that went to Harvard in my career and not once did someone wink at the Harvard guy and pass me over. I’m sure it happens, and I’m sure there are secret clubs I don’t get invited to (well the Harvard club is pretty nice and I was invited there by a…

> I’ve advanced further than everyone I know that went to Harvard in my career and not once did someone wink at the Harvard guy and pass me over. I'm only 27 and I definitely have - basically every Harvard CS grad from the year I graduated from my state school makes at least $200k more than me a year if they're in the workforce instead of academia and has a significantly higher net worth as a result!

Harvard is a pretty mediocre CS school. I would expect MIT, CMU, Stanford, Berkeley, UIUC, and the other (last I looked) 30 better schools for CS to do better on average.

I don’t mean this as unkind, but Harvard is very hard to get into and very selective and state schools generally are neither. This often means the people that get in, other than legacy, are very capable people. State schools also have very capable people, but as a percentage it’s the vast majority of Harvard and the vast minority of state school students are equally as capable. This gives a leg up on the first jobs for sure - one, they’re likely to be more capable in general, and they have an achievement on their resume to prove it. Admission to Harvard IS an achievement in life.

But these advantages disappear quickly if you’re as capable or more, especially if you’re aggressive in locking in achievements and seeking better opportunities. After maybe 10 years into your career what school you went to matters almost not at all, and it’s entirely based on what you did with that opportunity. Many Harvard grads start strong due to the achievement on their resume then top out quickly in their careers because they’re just not very commercial, and many rely on their brand too much.

But you should -still- expect someone capable of getting into Harvard to be just as capable in their careers. That’s simply life. If it weren’t for Harvard, they would find other ways to differentiate.

The truth is, labor markets are not egalitarian. They reward people differently for different reasons, and their ability to compensate based on contribution is highly inefficient. That rewards people with achievements like a top school early when nothing else differentiates resumes. But it fades quickly, and it’s up to you to make a stronger resume if it matters to you.

But I think it shouldn’t matter. That was my point. Someone else doing better than you shouldn’t matter. What should matter is if you’re happy with what you’re doing yourself ignoring all other people. Anything else is petty, unhelpful, and at odds with how life and reality actually is.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#365
post #351
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gentrification and unbalanced income strata are real things and real problems, but the 1% aren’t causing them simply by existing. This hits the nail on the head. It's tautological to say "the problem of inequality is caused by there being rich people that cause inequality". It pins the blame on individuals rather than the system they exist within.

Not wanting a class of wealth to exist speaks more about the system than the people. 99% of people who hate billionaires wouldn’t care about a specific person as long as that billionaire wasn’t actively trying to screw over the rest of us in their attempt to win more points.

The difference between you and a billionaire is a billion dollars.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the same folk-interpretation of Marxism that always goes around. Now that Marxism is dead and can’t defend itself, it’s whatever anyone wants it to be. States that were far closer to Marxism, like the PRC during the Cultural Revolution, decimated their universities and dispersed their faculties over the countryside, or to labor camps. This article is not on the same planet as that madness.

Now I'm seriously confused - a major criticism, by communists, of the Cultural Revolution was the blow back against all intellectuals and the destruction of the education system in the PRC. In what was was that Marxist? I mean, I know the arguments the red guard made, but there were other Marxists that disagreed. Are you just saying the red guard interpretation was the correct one?

I’m saying that on the continuum of Marxism, the PRC circa 1965 is somewhere to the middle-far-left and the article above (that OP claimed was Marxist) is all the way on the far right.

I’m not super interested in whether or not their Marxism was “authentic”, and neither is anyone who goes around, as OP did, randomly labeling things they don’t like as Marxist.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#367
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, differences between 18 year olds are extreme when you look at the best vs. the average

You didn't answer my question.

The "soccer program" is the professional soccer team that Cristiano Ronaldo was on. Should Freddy Fatass have been playing for them too?

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#368
post #37

> There’s a reasonable argument for putting the top professors together in one school, sure, and maybe even PhD students. Who's "putting" the professors there? The entire thing seemingly hinges on the idea that Harvard's role in society is somehow intentional and planned, as opposed to emergent and organic. I just don't buy it. The institution's stated objective may be the creation "citizen-leaders", but the influenc…

These ideas have a lot of following - that things are planned, intentional, designed to be that way. We might hear "why is that job worth so much money and that one isn't?" or here "why Harvard, at all?". And this is worth countering. Society as a whole rarely plans "one more Harvard" - and when it tries, it rarely succeeds. Many people did work hard to make Harvard (or anything that exists now) into what it is now - while from society's point of view, it just happened. At some stage these are the fruit of a market economy: some people put in their effort and now Harvard is what it is. In that case ironically, "putting the top professors together in one school" is pretty universal. High prestige institutions are attractive - for their colleagues, pay, facilities, projects, etc. The good news for the US is that there are many such "top institutions".

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#369
post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

I’ve hired 100+ people with around a 97% hit rate on hiring great employees and great engineers. I don’t look at whether they have a degree or not, I don’t care what school they went to. In my experience it provides no indication of whether they’re good or not.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#370
post #257
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Having managed over 100+ people, I can say that on average the people from better institutions are better employees - even though I have managed amazing people without college degrees and bad people with amazing degrees. There is a better method for selecting candidates: IQ testing. For better or worse, that's illegal. In fact college degrees are merely proxies for the lack of IQ data.

IQ testing is not illegal in the US ... It may be easier to not use it than to produce evidence that it is relevant, but ...

You misunderstood. Using IQ scores for the purpose of hiring is illegal.
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