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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#361
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

I suggest the drug user equivalent of an insane asylum. If you've shown you're a danger to yourself and/or others you get a place in a retreat/monastery/rehab centre/prison island where you get the care you need. Fraught with opportunities for abuse but not arguably more than the current situation and at least the rest of us can have our public spaces back.

> I suggest the drug user equivalent of an insane asylum. If you've shown you're a danger to yourself and/or others you get a place in a retreat/monastery/rehab centre/prison island where you get the care you need.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals." - C.S. Lewis, "God in the Dock"

To be fair, I used to think it would be best to use the courts to force medical treatment; the problem is that it invariably leads to labeling folks as "ill" and using courts to imprison them for their own safety.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#362
The opioid epidemic is at the heart of these issues. Maybe Oregon voters were naive, or maybe fentanyl is just too poisonous to really be considered a drug.

If you grew up in the rust belt, none of this is new. Kids were ODing in middle school in the 90s. Tragic of course, but someone is getting rich so inevitably the root cause is not bothered with.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#363

I don't even have to read the article. The US military is, if anything, serious about understanding cause and effect. They studied and learned about drug addiction during and after the Viet Nam war. What they found might seem counterintuitive. Addicted soldiers could break the habit easily once they returned home. Of course this is an oversimplification, but the idea is that circumstance has a lot to do with behavior…

Right, in Vietnam soldiers could use with relative impunity.

In the US they would be jailed or socially ostracized.

The circumstances changed such that there were serious consequences for doing drugs, and many were able to get off them when presented with consequences.

Removing consequences for antisocial levels of drug use does nothing to encourage people to get clean.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#364
Oregon decriminalizes drugs for a couple of years and we expect that the toxic drug crisis, homelessness, violence, poverty, petty crime, and child abuse will all magically disappear overnight. Yet the prohibition on drugs has been in force for decades and has accomplished none of its goals.

It’s fine to critique a new approach and work on improvements, but let’s not be too hasty here. We are trying to undo decades of harm caused by ridiculous policy failures.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're missing part of the equation there. Decriminalization isn't legalization. Legalization would mean controlling purity, and strength where the drug is licensed to be sold. Marijuana legalization hasn't lead to any major problems. People don't even bother getting it on the black market anymore where it is legal. They go for what's convenient. Beyond that simply throwing people in prison doesn't mean that w…

> Decriminalization actually would mean you see more of them out on the streets because they're not being locked away in prison. Decriminalization means the government cannot mandate people enter treatment. If people are out on the street and addicted, the government needs some teeth so they can treat even those that are in denial.

Agreed. Let's criminalize smoking and alcoholism as well.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#366
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people are killed on the road in accidents caused by elderly folks than drunk drivers. I know this sounds insane, but drunk driving should be no harm no foul.

In some sense, it is. Barring random sobriety checkpoints (which are generally avoidable).

I guess I have some not so unique experience. I was given a DUI in 2011 during a routine traffic stop. They officer cited I cut the protected left turn too tightly. The officer then said he smelled marijuana, even though I was currently smoking a normal cigarette. I was arrested immediately, my blood was taken, and being an occasional pot smoker, THC was in my blood, I got a DUI while completely sober driving to work at 9 AM.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then make sure you also vote for the people who want to build more housing.

More single family homes? Sure. Low income housing? Nah

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. If someone is rich enough to have a 3 bedroom detached home, that's all fine and dandy, but it's a complete nonstarter to house 30 poor people in the same space? I don't see how that solution reduces or solves homelessness for low-income individuals, who may not be able to afford much more than a single apartment. I suggest having more empathy for people in different circumstances; one day you might find yourself needing just a cheap roof over your head and I hope that you never do. If so, though, I hope that (against your stated preferences) you find shelter, because all humans should have that basic need.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#368
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving drunk is illegal because you're likely to kill someone, and then it'll be too late to say "let's just prosecute the crime of manslaughter, and not prevent future manslaughters by prosecuting drunkenness in the car." In the same way, we should make it illegal to do drugs in situations where you are likely to cause irreparable harm. If we legalize drugs, let's create safe situations to do so. Many drugs are bei…

More people are killed on the road in accidents caused by elderly folks than drunk drivers. I know this sounds insane, but drunk driving should be no harm no foul.

My friend who was killed by a repeated drunk driver might have argued otherwise. If you can't drive responsibly, it's in society's interest to make sure you never do.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#369

I don't even have to read the article. The US military is, if anything, serious about understanding cause and effect. They studied and learned about drug addiction during and after the Viet Nam war. What they found might seem counterintuitive. Addicted soldiers could break the habit easily once they returned home. Of course this is an oversimplification, but the idea is that circumstance has a lot to do with behavior…

Experts and the educated class will say it's a complex and multifaceted issue. I say it's because the fraction of the sweat of our brow we are entitled to is shrinking ever smaller into nothingness.
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