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CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

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Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#361

Post by XorNot »

R0flcopt3r wrote: post #328
pjc50 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hybrids that emit carbon will still have a huge effect on global warming, simply because there are so many cars. There isn't a huge amount of headroom for efficiency increases, so you're only going to get anywhere near "net zero" by charging from a renewable grid nearly all the time.

Hybrids almost never emit carbon though. Because they're almost always running from the battery that you charged up from the wall before leaving home for your daily commute. And the daily commute is less, or maybe a little over the battery range. If it isn't then you have bought the wrong car, if you goal is carbon neutrality. You can use a smaller battery, which means using less rare materials that are very expensiv…

I could not be more bored by people who go off on the indirect emissions tangent. Because it always mysteriously winds up at "so anyway, buy a vehicle/house/plane/whatever which directly burns fuel and will thus never be green".

It's an argument pushed by fossil fuel company's because it pretends the world is static and unchanging, as though the energy mix of the electrical grid can't vary, or that changes in fuel source and process for mining operations to be cleaner wouldn't drastically effect downstream users overall emissions profile.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#362

Post by chrismorgan »

msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

> 225 Wh/km

Meanwhile, fairly common cycling parameters lead to well under 10 Wh/km at comfortable cruising speeds, and with things like velomobiles you kinda start around 5 Wh/km, and 3 Wh/km is possible without significantly compromising the practicality of the vehicle.

Sure, sure, lower speeds, lower cargo capacity, lower safety, &c. &c.

But it’s still a useful comparison to contemplate, especially when considering the nascent category Lightweight Electric Vehicles, which in its most interesting form isn’t far off “ebike minus pedals”. Cars are still pretty power-inefficient as a general concept.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#363

Post by twobitshifter »

msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

Something you left out here is that the full capacity of the battery can’t be used. Tesla uses more of the battery than other manufacturers, which gives them a higher range per rated watt hour.

On top of that, they have more efficient components. When you compare a model S to a lightweight Carbon Fiber BMW i3, with a much smaller pack, you’ll see that the modelS still squeezes out a higher mpgE rating.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46207&...

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#365

Post by XorNot »

the_third_wave wrote: post #347
pjc50 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hybrids that emit carbon will still have a huge effect on global warming, simply because there are so many cars. There isn't a huge amount of headroom for efficiency increases, so you're only going to get anywhere near "net zero" by charging from a renewable grid nearly all the time.

As to whether those hybrids have a 'huge effect' on 'global warming' depends on many factors but assuming the narrative around climate change - the term 'global warming' has been swapped for the latter since the average global temperature has gone down for a number of years after an earlier steady rise - in relation to the CO₂ hypothesis holds truth the main factor of importance is the source of the carbon used in th…

> the term 'global warming' has been swapped for the latter since the average global temperature has gone down for a number of years after an earlier steady rise

You're just going to throw that out there? You'll cite the Fischer-Tropsch process, but not "actually global temperatures are declining"?

Here[1]. The temperature hasn't gone down. The narrative hasn't changed from global warming because of this (the term was in fact dropped because people are idiots and trying to explain what global temperature is measuring in terms of energy dynamics in the climate system doesn't work...). 2022 was the 6th warmest year on record, and based on all data the overall trend is up.

[1] https://www.noaa.gov/news/2022-was-worlds-6th-warmest-year-o...

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#366

Post by jpgvm »

j16sdiz wrote: post #62
fock wrote: post #16

and then in Germany right wing/neoliberal politicians run around, make smug faces and tell people: ooooh, we need e-fuels because those combustion engines, they are sooooo good, the chinese are envious and will just copy (yes. for tanks...). During their reign: - solar industry: gone (in the 2000s germany had everything, domestically produced) - wind energy: gone (well, Siemens did it themselves too) - existing domes…

> Oh and of course they now want to build nuclear plants after they've shown for the last 30years that we have reached a state of more dysfunctional oligarchy than the Soviet Union ever was I can't express how much I hate this. In terms of technology and engineering, nuclear is now so mature that it should be used everywhere solar doesn't make sense. Yet , in terms of politics, society and governance, we are still st…

China is.going to have the largest fleet of nuclear reactors in the world, all within a decade or two. We can bitch and moan all we want about their governance system but when it counts they are always the ones doing the right thing while Western governments hold their dicks and piss into the wind.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#367

Post by [deleted] »

msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

[deleted]

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#368

Post by giantg2 »

audunw wrote: post #329
giantg2 wrote: post #300

1200wh/kg is when it will get really interesting to me. Half the weight and double the range would be great. Plus, electrified ultralight "aircraft" start to have numerous advantages over the traditional 2 stoke engines.

Why would it only be interesting at that point? At 500wh/kg, if the cost is low enough, you're already going to eliminate fossil fuels from basically everything except long range flights and shipping. > Half the weight and double the range would be great You don't need to quadruple energy density to achieve that. If you just half the weight (without increasing the total amount of energy in the battery), you're going…

Ultralight have a very specific set of regulations. 500wh/kg is where you can really start to use it in that application. Currently there are models with electric, but it's about 1 hour flight time (advertised) and you don't have great margins. If you can reduce the weight and get a true 2 hours, then that would replicate the characteristics of today's 2 stroke.

Another point is that it won't take very long for ultralight since they aren't technically defined as an aircraft but as an air vehicle. You can home build them.

Yes, you might see a 10% increase in range with half the vehicle weight. If you tow or take long trips, you want double the range. At that density, you're choosing one or the other, or an "eh" compromise. I want 800 miles and less weight/size. This can especially be useful for retrofit kits for existing vehicles for people who hate all the tech in the EVs.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#369

Post by actionfromafar »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #293
actionfromafar wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many engines can be converted to run on ethanol.

This gets thrown out quite a bit but I don't really buy it. If it is not designed for alcohol, it probably isn't going to work. Alcohol has too many weird interactions with stuff like aluminum.

Which was why I didn't say "all" or anything like that. But basically a lot of engines from Ford and Volvo can run on ethanol. Any old iron block can if you replace pipes and hoses. And so on.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#370

Post by semi-extrinsic »

svnt wrote: post #331
leoedin wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big reason for this is thermodynamics. A conventional internal combustion engine car has to convert chemical energy to kinetic energy - the absolute best theoretical efficiency of this might be 70%, but in practice it's more like 30%. Electric cars have to pay the same thermodynamic penalty, but they pay it at the power station (In practice, thanks to renewables, not all the electricity used to charge a car will…

It is a sign of the success of the oil industry that this analysis always takes the cost of electricity generation back to the source, but assumes that fuel stations pump from a perfect source of naturally refined/distilled hydrocarbons. It is surprisingly difficult to get numbers on how much oil is used to extract, refine and transport oil. The best I found was this: https://www.speakev.com/threads/energy-required-t…

I know Equinor publishes quite detailed numbers from their operations:

https://sustainability.equinor.com/climate-tables

The headline figure is maybe to compare 11.4 mill. tonnes CO2e emissions from "Scope 1 + Scope 2" (direct emissions from the company plus indirect emissions because they buy electricity and stuff), versus 243 mill. tonnes CO2e from Scope 3 (emissions from people burning the hydrocarbons sold).

If that figure is correct, you can add 1.6 percent to the car tailpipe emissions figures to account for production and refining etc.

But this is an oil & gas company that tries very hard and is among the best in the world for minimising emissions from production and refining. I would not be surprised if gasoline from US shale oil is more than an order of magnitude worse.

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