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Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

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Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#361
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's not your point, but learning to write by tracing at age 3 doesn't sound anything like the actual teachings of Maria Montessori. The whole point is child directed learning, and having kids at 3 trace things sounds pretty anti-ethical towards that. Most of this stuff is parent directed because they want little Johnny to be brilliant, but afaik goes against pretty much all early childhood development researc…

Give charity to the idea. Odds are high they had a ton of tracing stations available, and the kids that gravitated to it, used it. That is, the idea is to enable learning by availability of opportunities and encouragement. So, no. This doesn't go against any research. Unless you frame it in the most uncharitable way that you can.

Yes exactly. The children at that age in a “Casa” classroom cycle through self-chosen activities every day and may not choose the same activities consistently. If a child is observed to be avoiding a particular learning activity over a period of time, it’s the role of the teacher (director/directress) to nudge the child back to that activity and understand why they might be avoiding it.

Plus given there are three years worth of children in the same class, seeing the “senior” children operate at the higher levels of activities helps with incentive for the younger children who want to emulate them.

That said, anyone can open a “Montessori school” and not adhere to any particular Montessori pedagogy. I’d argue the schools with the purest interpretations of Maria Montessori’s teachings are often just as problematic as those who are Montessori in name only. There are two tribes in Montessori: AMS (purists)and AMI (more flexible).

Thankfully the school my daughter attended was AMI and I watched the school adapt their methods to children who needed more structure than classical Montessori advises. Ultimately, it’s not for everyone.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#362
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American exceptionalism leaves some Americans with the mis-guided belief that there is nothing to learn from other countries. I couldn't help but laugh seeing your comment was downvoted at the time I read this. What Americans should consider is removing charter/private schools so that rich kids have to have the same experience as middle class and lower income. In my experience wealthy families have time and resources…

Ya the main problem with US education is lack of funding due to segregation. This should be the headline, not microanalysis of one specific symptom like reading comprehension. I'm growing more concerned with each passing year that we're so distracted playing whack-a-mole with each of the thousand crises facing us that we've become blind to systems-level thinking. When I was growing up in the 80s, we were taught that…

> we've become blind to systems-level thinking

Well said. A consequence of no longer having a congress/senate willing to work across the aisle is that it takes so much political capital to pass a bill that there is no fuel left to apply incremental changes over time. A well functioning government will address gaps in policy changes in year 2 or 3 after new policy comes out. Instead no improvements are made until year 4 when a new government comes in and reverses direction completely.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of the attitudes being pushed in the education system itself. After a couple of generations, "expertism" has embedded deeply into the American mindset. It's very dangerous to live in a culture where we don't question experts.

This is true, but like so many things America seems to have lost the ability to moderate. For every person who blindly follows "experts", there's someone who insists experts don't know anything at all and any random thought that pops into my head is just as valid as any expert opinion. It's gone binary, and the actual real world is analog, as any expert will tell you.

I wish you were wrong. I've met actual Flat Earth believers, which I find astonishing and disconcerting. Unfortunately, I feel like the over-reaction against expert opinion is part of the cost of prior abuse of expert opinion. Trust in institutions is eroded and in my opinion, for justifiable reasons. We're definitely not in good shape as a society.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting because in the 1960 novel To Kill a Mockingbird (widely taught in the US and well-known in other countries), there's a scene where the character Scout is criticized in school by her teacher, when it's discovered that Scout learned to read ahead of the curriculum, from her father at home. The teacher expressed the concern that Scout might end up learning how to read incorrectly. If I remember correc…

Now that they are at school, there is always an emphasis on us as parents taking an active role in reading with them and encouraging them at home. I can see now how this was taken given the way I wrote it.. I believe the intention was more "Don't pressure your kids and stress yourself trying to get them to read before even starting school". An example of kids being confused was being taught the upper-case alphabet, w…

When my oldest brother was a preschooler, my mom attended a meeting at school for parents of preschoolers. They specifically told her: "Do not attempt to teach your child to read, you will do it wrong." Also, she tried to find out the right way, and was rebuffed. She sensed bullshit, and taught us to read at home.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of my parents learned to read at home, in poverty. Both had educated parents, who had been displaced by the events of the era. I learned to read at home. Both of my kids, likewise. It didn't even remotely occur to anybody in the family that learning to read was special, or that there might even be any way to teach it other than phonics. English has a phonetic alphabet after all, right? Moreover, learning to read…

I'm Greek. When teaching a kid to read English using phonics, how do you explain that "tough" and "rough" are written the same, but sound different than "though" and "borough", and that "doe" and "low" rhyme with each other and both the latter, but neither of the former? And how do you explain "Loughborough"? Why not "Lowborrow", as in "low" and "borrow"? Don't kids ask those things when you teach them to read with p…

That is just the tip of the iceberg for "ough". The way I pronounce English there are six sounds that "ough" can make:

1. borough (-oh) 2. through (-oo) 3. rough (-uff) 4. cough (-awf) 5. thought (-aw-) 6. plough (-ow)

And in some accents it can be a schwa (uh). I associate this with Britain and some northeast American regions. There are probably other sounds too.

As a kid, I was just told that these are 6 sounds that it can make. I was given them in that order (ostensibly in order of most common use), told to memorize them, and when encountering it in a word, try them until one seems correct. For some other phonics I had some mnemonics. For "oo" I remembered: "Don't eat food that you took from the floor."

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#366
post #181

Again from the podcast: Hanford: So much of this research isn’t new. And this idea that readers use context, multiple sources of information to solve words, identify words as they’re reading, that was really taken on by researchers back in the 70s and 80s, as an interesting question. Like, is that what we do? And they showed quite definitively that that wasn’t the case. I mean, were you sort of aware of that research…

> These people belong in gaol. Luckily in the US, being very wrong about something, even when it's very consequential, is not illegal. We'd have a much less entrepreneurial society, and a lot less open, free debate, if it were. Lucy Calkins did not force people to follow her methods, she persuaded them through teaching and advocacy. FWIW I think a lot of affected students would have a reasonable civil case against Te…

> Luckily in the US, being very wrong about something, even when it's very consequential, is not illegal.

It is for certain professions. And the criteria for civil liability are much lighter than that for criminal liability. All professionals should carry liability insurance. And, they should operate under the protection of a limited liability company or something similar.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#367
post #257
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting X early is IMO a bit of a red herring with child development, especially when they're in the low single digits. Their minds grow in power recognizably on a weekly basis (particularly noticeable when you spend a week apart) that an amazing uphill achievement at time t can be a trivially picked up thing at time t+1. I think you're right on the culture thing. My kid loves new books and understands that they con…

Yeah. Tried to get mine to ride a bike at 3.5 and he kept falling over. Now he tries again at 4.5 and he just immediately drives away.

Indeed, and it varies with each kid. My younger brother and I were 18 months apart. Whether he was "early" or I was "late," what was my mom going to do with him while teaching me to read? So we learned together.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#368
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there isn't even good data on the effectiveness of marketing and advertising Thinking that is a kind of proof that marketing and advertising work - to get people to believe they aren't being profoundly influenced by marketing and advertising.

I happened to work in academic cog/neuro-sci research, and have ended up programming for a company that's doing some form of market research, but I haven't seen that data. Sure, advertising works, but how, and to what extent? There's a bunch of competing frameworks, each with their own research school, but it's more marketing than science. 20 to 30 dissimilar points on a 2D grid with a linear regression line, that's…

The original assertion was that psychology works just fine in marketing and advertising, and you asked "does it really?" Here you say, "Sure, advertising works".

While quantitative data on how it works and how effective it is might be lacking, the point is that it does work. The remaining questions are of the "more study is needed to draw any conclusions" kinds of objections that the tobacco industry used to obfuscate the hazards of smoking and that the petrochemical industry uses today to prevent action on global warming. It's is this kind of uncertainty and doubt that I'm asserting is why so many people are still unclear about how much influence marketing and advertising have over their choices.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We taught our daughter to read at age 3 using the "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" book mentioned elsewhere in this thread. I remember when we first brought her to kindergarten and mentioned that she was already a competent reader--her teacher seemed oddly insistent about downplaying her abilities, and kept correcting us to say that she was "decoding" the text, rather than reading it. OK, if you say so-…

We're going through it now, the same book 100 lessons. I have two kids, one is almost 6 and one is 3.5. We got the book because the 6 year old was struggling considerably with reading. The book is a real effort to go through and requires a lot of patience with the 6 year old. Thankfully we are 80% of the way through it. The incredible thing is the 3.5 year old sees the older one do it and she wants to do it and she's…

Always a bit of a struggle as an engineer who is always searching for the solution and has a trained approach to debugging. Some just don't want to try something new for fear it won't work or that it isn't the preferred approach. This is most people I feel.

Thanks for sharing. I'm going to try this book. My 5 yr old likes to be read to, but sternly refuses to attempt to read words. Also montessori. He likes some mobile games which have menus so I'm going to explain why we are doing it but also position this book as a way so he can read menus in games so he knows how to play. And then I'll reinforce that when he asks me to read any menus/storylines in the games by going through the phonetic process and challenging him.

> Frankly I don't think she's still completely convinced, but I refuse to sit on the sidelines and watch my kids not be able to read.

I had a similar situation where I had a thesis on my child's behavioral health concern. Saw a neurologist and she confirmed exactly what I said. Wife was STILL not convinced and even criticized the neurologist's evaluation. But our kid improved after I disclosed the neurologist's evaluation to my sis in law and told them we need them to move out. They had been staying with her family in my house for a year and my wife had been watching their kid. Problem solved. Case closed. My wife wanted to help her sis so much that she was refusing to see the damage the situation was causing.

I also had to take matters in my own hand with getting kids to be sleep trained. Wife refused to do cry it out and we just kept struggling and getting no sleep over and over and kids weren't getting quality sleep. I'll get onboard a plan but if it doesn't work, I'm not going to continue to stay on that path.

I told her I'd handle it and then boom, got them trained in a few days. Not fun at ALL, but all these industries and philosophies take over and push it out there as the new one true way when we have hundreds or sometimes thousands of years of success in various things that work lol.

This is not unique of course. We see this in engineering all the time. Until the tried and true disciplines prevail. And the ones that care about what works best for the context, rather than what is popular at the time are the ones with less stress/anxiety.

I've seen family members say - oh cry it out is stressful for the child and creates distrust. Meanwhile, both partners get no sleep, project their stress and frustration and even end up yelling at their child because of it! Their spousal relationship suffers big time too. Makes no sense to me. Also the same ones who try to optimize everything for their child according to modern parenting philosophies are the ones who have completely unhealthy marriages in my experience. In my opinion, the best thing you can do for your kids is to just show them how to treat and love your spouse and do things that take care of yourself and your spouse so you can be great parents. If you try to do everything according to what is popular at the time, you're going to have a bad time. You need the oxygen mask so you can help your dependents.

Or you have parents who refuse to do cry it out and say - oh I couldn't get baby down last night, had to hold them on my chest and sleep in a chair. Utter madness. Don't do that. They will now be used to your warm embrace and heartbeat and they will never be able to sleep normally in their bed. Well... until you do some form of cry it out lol.

Most things really aren't that hard or frustrating unless you create and foster an environment that makes them so.

end rant

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#370
post #2

As someone who's both worked as a teacher and as a software engineer, my feeling is that what happened in reading education is roughly what engineers' jobs would be forced by their CTOs to use software methodologies and languages that came from their university professors who've never really spend much time (at least not in well over a decade if at all) doing actual salaried software development where code had to be…

We also used "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" for both of our kids. It works outrageously well and we've recommended it to all our friends with young children.
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