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Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

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Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#361

Post by AnimalMuppet »

rainworld wrote: post #58
watwut wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Because Finland joining NATO is direct response to Russia attacking Ukraine. The snub makes sense for two reasons: - Russia invaded under pretext of "we are afraid of NATO". - It prevents Russia from attacking Finland. They are less likely to attack NATO members and more likely to attack countries outside of the aliance.

Russia invaded under pretext of "we are afraid of NATO". NATO in Ukraine wasn’t a pretext it was (part of) the text. People in the West really seem to think Russia invaded to satisfy some vague desire for evil and villainy. People in the West really seem to think NATO and the EU being in a (proxy) war now with Russia over Ukraine disproves Russian concerns. It prevents Russia from attacking Finland Which was never go…

You sure seem to think you know a lot about the odds of Russia invading Finland. But unless you're privy to Putin's actual strategic plans, I'm going to trust Finland's assessment of the risk more than I'm going to trust yours.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#362

Post by andreygrehov »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #332
andreygrehov wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conflict was almost inevitable. In January, before the war started, Russia made the last attempt to stop the expansion. The U.S. rejected it [1]. Russia made multiple hints saying that if the expansion continues, they'll invade. That's why, imho, Biden was so confident in Feb 19-20 saying the war will begin within a week. Heck, even Ukraine knew everything, but they decided to hide it from people - this was confi…

So russia tried really hard to NOT invade a sovereign country and US made it impossible? Which twisted logic do you have? russia had no chance but go in and bomb maternity wards, genocide away freely, poor-poor russia, they had no chance of just not doing any of that? /s > Russia made the last attempt to stop the expansion you even use the word expansion here

Russia is not targeting civilians, but since this is a war, civilians are obviously affected.

What really happens is Russia targets military objects as part of their demilitarization goal. Ukraine shots down a rocket and then debris strikes into civilians buildings. This is happening daily. Example: today's night. My family is in Ukraine right now. Russia was bombing a military base which I used to walk around when I was a kid. Not a single civilian was harmed, but the base is on fire.

> So russia tried really hard to NOT invade a sovereign country and US made it impossible?

US made it possible by declining Russia's ask. That's how I see it.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#363

Post by AnimalMuppet »

polski-g wrote: post #64
mcphage wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia could also take over all of Ukraine in about a week. I think that qualifies for a great big [Citation Needed].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#365

Post by koonsolo »

foverzar wrote: post #301
GalenErso wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the idea that it was a mistake for NATO to allow former Soviet bloc countries to join, because it would supposedly encroach on Russia's sphere of influence or increase tensions with Russia. Spheres of influence are gained through economic muscle and cultural power now, not force of arms.

> I don't buy the idea that it was a mistake for NATO to allow former Soviet bloc countries to join, because it would supposedly encroach on Russia's sphere of influence or increase tensions with Russia It was a mistake for NATO to do it without Russia. It's not a matter of "influence", but a matter of military risks and perceived threats. If there was a political will towards pushing Russia to NATO any similar to wh…

Dictators don't like united democracies. Strange.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#367

Post by foverzar »

lesuorac wrote: post #291
foverzar wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why put up with Russia expansion Why put up with NATO expansion? Russia's expansion is also totally defensive! wink-wink > It's funny how Russia always pretend to be a victim It's ironic how Russia is always assumed to be a passive unresponsive corpse with no concerns or perspective and memory of its own. I wonder if it's even hypothetically possible for people to try to fairly grasp that perspective, otherwise Eur…

> Why put up with NATO expansion? Russia's expansion is also totally defensive! wink-wink The difference between NATO's expansion and Russia's expansion is that Finland is not under a threat of violence from NATO. Quite clearly Russia is threatening Ukraine with violence if it doesn't become part of Russia. That would be why Russia's expansion isn't totally defensive. I mean, it's defensive for Russia sure. Just not…

> The difference between NATO's expansion and Russia's expansion is that Finland is not under a threat of violence from NATO.

But Finland isn't technically under a threat of violence from Russia. "Wasn't" at least, as there had been no warm grievances that anyone really cared about.

You'll say that Finland has to assume threat and mitigate risks, but this is hardly any different from Russia's perspective against NATO.

> Quite clearly Russia is threatening Ukraine with violence if it doesn't become part of Russia.

Eh, methinks this is an overestimation of Russia's ambition. One could realistically argue that Russia merely "defends" east-leaning loyalish "Russian-speaking" regions. Realistically, even action towards Odessa would automatically involve Prednisone and then no one would be handle that Genie without major clusterfuck.

> I mean, it's defensive for Russia sure. Just not for Ukraine.

Sure, but that's exactly the point I am trying to convey: enemy military can talk about "defense" all it wants, but at the end of the day their job is to kill people and that might as well include you.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#368

Post by mongol »

INTPenis wrote: post #157

As a Swede this makes me happy, partially because Finland shares a lot of their border with Russia and can now feel safe knowing they have the might of 30 nations behind them, but also because we're now surrounded by NATO countries. So no need for us to join, right? Right?! Let's remain neutral and a free haven for political dissidents and potential refugees of the future, right?!!

As a Swede I disgree on the strongest. What do you want to be neutral about? That time is past us. We belong in the company of European democracies that stand together against authoritarian aggressions.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#369

Post by selectodude »

staringback wrote: post #295
boeingUH60 wrote: post #247

Score a win for the US, NATO, and the west. Putin is a weak fraud who has been exposed…can’t wait for his regime to collapse, all without the west lifting a finger. When you meet a mad paranoid dog like Putin, the best thing is to bait them and let them eat themselves just like Putin has done.

70 billion of US taxpayer money isn't even lifting a finger?

$70bn worth of expiring munitions that we were going to let rot in a field after Afghanistan. I imagine the actual outlay is much less.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#370

Post by IYasha »

akho wrote: post #275
BurningFrog wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Soviet Union killed between 20-60 million of its own people. Did Tsarist Russia really do anything that competes with that?

Tsarist Russia enslaved most of its population for centuries.

You sound nonsensical. Russian government did enslave russian population?? Just remember that "coincidentally" the whole Romanov (that's a stage name) family are germans. And official history is even more coincidentally was (over)written by germans.
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