Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief • Hacker News Board

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#361

Post by gadders » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:06 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #336

whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

This is a general question for the whole "social justice" movement. If you're concerned about the wellbeing of black people, and you justify your concern with statistics pointing out that they're disproportionately poor, why not, instead of instituting preferential treatment for black people (which, btw, is racist), you support preferential treatment for poor people instead? That way, you are more efficient (e.g. you…

I agree with this, and have been working to get this implemented at the large bank I work for. Being from a lower socio-economic background cuts across diversity characteristics and makes life a lot harder.

It's starting to get some traction with regulators as well: https://www.progresstogether.co.uk/

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#362

Post by orthoxerox » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:07 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #164

whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

"Or ban legacy preferences at the very least" It would be interesting if there was a rule that forbid you from attending the same school as your parents.

The USSR under Khruschev tried something similar: they were worried that people were becoming stratified: university-educated people would send their children into universities, factory workers would send their children into technical schools. Surely in a perfect world the demographics of university students should reflect the demographics of their parents' generation?

So, a lot of restrictions and quotas were added to get these working-class children into universities. A couple of years after the first batch graduated the program was rolled back. Soviet scientists started to complain, because diversity and equity be damned, the quality of the graduates cratered. If you want to be able to rain nuclear fire on the USA, you need the best and the brightest working in your research institutes.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#363

Post by Glyptodon » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:07 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #325

Glyptodon wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they raise children who are more effectively socialized and protected more so than more capable. I've known very capable people who don't have the status to refuse to kiss rings and they always get screwed in public schools. The kids with sufficiently "decent" parents get handled with kid gloves and rule adherence, everyone else gets punched down with half-assery even when if they're experiencing injustice an…

I'm not sure I follow everything you wrote. Are you saying that poverty produces children and individuals more capable of driving and succeeding in society?

No.

That if one kid is poor or minority or unstable background, etc., and a bit of a loose cannon, they'll get graded lower for the same answers, punished or dismissed if they question anything, not going to be able or willing to check in before school or after class for more help, etc., meanwhile goody two shoes daughter of the town dentists will give the same answers, socialize better with the teacher, who knows the parent's status, and likes the kid, give her points back, and by the end of the semester they'll both be just as smart, but one will have an A- and the other a C+.

Basically kids having the "right" kind of parents and community connections and behavioral signifiers is at least ~1 letter grade overall regardless of students and ability.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#364

Post by Broken_Hippo » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:07 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #219

whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

I used to think standardized tests were the way to go, but... My kid recently went through another testing gauntlet, which is the 11+ test. For those who aren't in the Southeast corner of the UK, this is a multiple choice type test that looks a lot like an IQ test in some ways. It's a single sitting and determines whether you are allowed into something called a Grammar School, which is just a selective school, and th…

I think what might actually be hard to game is teacher recommendations. After all these people have been with the kid for a long time and know what they can do. They also tend to be distanced enough that they don't have to say good things about every kid.

When I was 11, I had a teacher lean over during class and tell me how much she didn't like me, that I was the laziest student she had ever had, and that she couldn't wait until the end of the year because she wouldn't have to see me any more. To be fair: I wasn't a horrible student, was usually quiet without many friends, and just wasn't at the point to handle 2-3 hours of homework, probably due to undiagnosed issues.

I learned that teachers don't always have your best interests at heart, and I couldn't trust any of them much. I couldn't imagine the stress of trying to impress teachers to the point of getting recommendations, and I can't imagine she'd have given me one and I probably would have been scared to ask the others after that. On the other hand, it also became quite clear that you could game the system a little if you got the teachers to like you.

Just because they don't have to say good things about every kid doesn't mean that all of them will say things that give a fair assessment, though a lot would try a little more than this woman did.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#365

Post by tomp » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:09 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #347

tomp wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a general question for the whole "social justice" movement. If you're concerned about the wellbeing of black people, and you justify your concern with statistics pointing out that they're disproportionately poor, why not, instead of instituting preferential treatment for black people (which, btw, is racist), you support preferential treatment for poor people instead? That way, you are more efficient (e.g. you…

The basic hypotheses for the pro-affirmative action crowd are: 1) Black people are not actually less “good at stuff”, we just have a habit of defining “stuff” in a way that excludes the things that black people are more likely to excel at. And, 2) Where black people do statistically worse, it’s not due to any innate difference, it’s because socially accepted “normal” support systems are more useful for people with ch…

Which of these basic hypotheses supports reparations?

I'm pretty sure there needs to be a 3) blacks are poorer as well.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#366

Post by rayiner » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:09 PM UTC

Kon-Peki wrote: post #327

rayiner wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm experiencing this first hand. My family immigrated here from Bangladesh. Unlike much of my family, my dad had a college-degree required job lined up, and we ended up pretty comfortable with him on a GS-scale job and my mom selling furniture. Thanks to the SATs, my brother and I both ended up breaking into industries (banking, law) that until relatively recently were good old boy's clubs. Now that I have kids at i…

> But if I was a recent immigrant, or a lower middle class kid in Iowa, I'd be pretty outraged about this. It may be worth mentioning that one of the, if not the , most powerful IP lawyers in the Bay Area is “only” a University of Iowa Law School grad. https://www.quinnemanuel.com/attorneys/verhoeven-charles-k/#...

There's tons of people from fairly modest backgrounds in the legal profession, including ones who went to elite law schools. (E.g. Lawrence, Kansas, of all places, is the hometown of not one but two prominent south asian lawyers, Kannon Shanmugam and Judge Sri Srinivasan.) That's the direct result of the LSAT democratizing the legal profession over the last couple of generations.

I suspect you're correct, though, that if Harvard closes those doors, talented people will go to the University of Iowa (my wife's alma mater) and do fine.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#367

Post by gadders » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:12 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #219

whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

I used to think standardized tests were the way to go, but... My kid recently went through another testing gauntlet, which is the 11+ test. For those who aren't in the Southeast corner of the UK, this is a multiple choice type test that looks a lot like an IQ test in some ways. It's a single sitting and determines whether you are allowed into something called a Grammar School, which is just a selective school, and th…

I live in the southeast of the UK and my daughter took the 11+ and passed. She also went to a private prep school.

Private schools don't give as much 11+ help as you would think - if a child passes the 11+, the private lose all the potential senior school fees.

Tutoring for the exam definitely helps, but it's mostly exam technique and practise on those types of logical reasoning questions. They can't do the questions for you.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#368

Post by vbtemp » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:14 PM UTC

We have to remember that Rob Henderson is a performer running his shtick. At first I really liked him, and in general agree with his assessments of things.

But he's just another guy that has to turn tricks with some new variant of "durr hurr liberal plan for X is elitist and a luxury belief."

It's a little personal with him, because right before the 2020 election he posted something pretentious like "In 2016 I bet and won a lot of money on the outcome of the election, and I bet even more this time" (Implying his non-elitist background gave him the clairvoyance that Trump would win. I asked him who he bet on this time. Then the results came in and Trump was clearly losing in 2020, and then he blocked me.

In the end, even if we agree with him, he's just another culture warrior that whose livelihood depends on feeding the angry masses outrage at whatever Team Blue/Team Red is doing.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#369

Post by weatherlite » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:16 PM UTC

sgustard wrote: post #295

sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Standardized tests remain the only criteria totally in the control of the student. You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant. Everthing else is either circumstantial or based in the opinion of others, mostly highschool teachers. If i had to rely on my highschool teachers' opinion of me i would not have ever gone to university let alone have won scholarships. Standardized testing allo…

Were you objectively more deserving to go to college than a kid with stellar teacher recommendations but lower scores? You might think so, but others would disagree. When I hire, I choose a trusted colleague's referral over the candidate who happened to cram best to do binary trees on a whiteboard.

> When I hire, I choose a trusted colleague's referral over the candidate who happened to cram best to do binary trees on a whiteboard

I love it that you make your candidates go through binary trees questions on a whiteboard AND are totally dismissive of it at the same time. That's totally not a waste of everyone's time.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#370

Post by WalterBright » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 7:16 PM UTC

prpl wrote: post #345

rayiner wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm experiencing this first hand. My family immigrated here from Bangladesh. Unlike much of my family, my dad had a college-degree required job lined up, and we ended up pretty comfortable with him on a GS-scale job and my mom selling furniture. Thanks to the SATs, my brother and I both ended up breaking into industries (banking, law) that until relatively recently were good old boy's clubs. Now that I have kids at i…

Lower middle class (and even uneducated pedigree upper middle class) is where the brutalism is for competitive schools, but lower middle class has state schools (if in California, Cal State schools) or community college- and almost always finishes high school with a middle-of-the-pack education, thanks both to average public scholar and average home lives. So, generally they are fine. I wish the obsession with top-ti…

When I attended Caltech, there was no evidence that it was a rich kids school. For example, very few students had a car. The ones that did had a Bug or an old Ford pickup. I don't recall anyone wearing tailored clothes, the students mostly wore completely unremarkable stuff. When I'd meet their parents, they were perfectly ordinary people.