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Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

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Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#361

Post by anonymouskimmer »

emiliobumachar wrote: post #358
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that nothing like this exists in nature, it's that evolutionarily speaking nothing like this existed in the areas human first evolved. Or if they did, we either evolved to resist them, thus no longer see them as toxic, or we're still in an arms race with the life that produces them (which means they would be much less toxic than fentanyl, but still toxic). Plants (and fungi, and animals) evolved to create no…

Could you please link to or expand about plants producing toxins that specifically keep animals from breeding? It's news to me, and a web search has failed me. Is that long-term pest control, or something else?

The term you want to search for is "phytoestrogens".

From wikipedia: "It has been hypothesized that plants use a phytoestrogen as part of their natural defence against the overpopulation of herbivore animals by controlling female fertility.[3][4]"

Though wikipedia also says: "These compounds in plants are an important part of their defense system, mainly against fungi.[19]"

So it could be that plants are principally targeting fungi for the most part, and just serendipitously targeting animals as well.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#362

Post by cantSpellSober »

nyolfen wrote: post #338
cantSpellSober wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any reason but speculation? If so, please inform the DEA! https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-...

fentanyl is a relatively exotic pharmaceutical and is not widely prescribed except in very serious or unusual circumstances. i have read a good deal about production shifting from china to mexico in the last few years with china shifting more toward precursors following a ccp crackdown, but what i've read today suggests that the bulk is still produced and finished in china for export, with india's chemical industry a…

> most fentanyl is manufactured in clandestine labs in mexico

contradicts your later statement

> the bulk is still produced and finished in china for export

> illicit fent still appears to mostly be produced by china for now

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#363

Post by asveikau »

ethanbond wrote: post #359
asveikau wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What doesn't work is telling people "it's not your fault" > trying to comfort people by blaming their problems on purely exterior sources These are not the same thing. The former is literal truth. The latter hints at intention, blame, denial. It's not their fault, but they can get through it. You can hold these two simultaneously.

Why is it not someone’s fault when they get addicted after choosing to do a known-addictive substance? “Not their fault” certainly doesn’t describe all addicts. They don’t need to be faultless to deserve compassion.

The more life experience I have the more I conclude that assessing the existence and extent of someone's fault is a pointless exercise. People tend to exhaust enormous amounts of pointless energy stuck in that place.

Your last sentence drives it home. They deserve compassion. Who cares about subjective assessment of fault once you reach that conclusion?

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#364

Post by elil17 »

orblivion wrote: post #148
elil17 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opioid overdoses are typically due how opioids effect the brain, so this would prevent fentanyl from contributing to and overdose.

Yeah that did cross my mind. I wonder if it really blocks it at the same level that you're talking about.

That is part of the goal of the vaccines, but I don't think there is enough trial data to know yet.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#365

Post by bragr »

cf141q5325 wrote: post #277
bragr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't give this to the general population, only to addicts that couldn't get clean otherwise.

Those might need the end of life pain management one day. Its what makes it so vicious. They are in no position to think the horrible consequences through. edit: Lets lot sugarcoat this. This is not a new idea. If you push this on somebody, you might as well torture them to death yourself. Its that bad of an idea and your motivation doesnt change the outcome. There are a whole lot of worse fates then being an addict…

>Those might need the end of life pain management one day

If you need end of life pain management, then it means you never fatally OD'd on fentanyl, which is the likely outcome of opiate addiction.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#366

Post by nyolfen »

cantSpellSober wrote: post #362
nyolfen wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fentanyl is a relatively exotic pharmaceutical and is not widely prescribed except in very serious or unusual circumstances. i have read a good deal about production shifting from china to mexico in the last few years with china shifting more toward precursors following a ccp crackdown, but what i've read today suggests that the bulk is still produced and finished in china for export, with india's chemical industry a…

> most fentanyl is manufactured in clandestine labs in mexico contradicts your later statement > the bulk is still produced and finished in china for export > illicit fent still appears to mostly be produced by china for now

yes, that is why i was writing that comment, to point out corrections to both of our previous comments, hence "what i've read today"

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#367

Post by bArray »

defrost wrote: post #357
bArray wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would ask a different 'why', which is 'why is fentanyl so easily accessible?'. We know where it's made, how it gets into the US, a long list of reasons for why people start taking it. But why hasn't the supply of fentanyl to the US been restricted? Given how many lives this destroys, how many people it takes out of the potential workforce, how many social problems this causes (crime, homelessness, exasperated menta…

I answered this at length in a forum some months back and sadly can't find the text (for now). The abridged version is: there too much money to be made. Fentanyl has gone from direct primary import (which was blocked) to banning of exporting precursor drugs from bulk suppliers in China (to slow down | stop Mexican drug labs from mixing them to make Fentanyl) to where things are today ... relatively mobile "popup" dru…

Appreciated, the context is useful.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#368

Post by cf141q5325 »

bragr wrote: post #365
cf141q5325 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those might need the end of life pain management one day. Its what makes it so vicious. They are in no position to think the horrible consequences through. edit: Lets lot sugarcoat this. This is not a new idea. If you push this on somebody, you might as well torture them to death yourself. Its that bad of an idea and your motivation doesnt change the outcome. There are a whole lot of worse fates then being an addict…

>Those might need the end of life pain management one day If you need end of life pain management, then it means you never fatally OD'd on fentanyl, which is the likely outcome of opiate addiction.

That is a caricature. You can invest in naloxon if you are worried about that. Or better yet, go the route of Switzerland and provide safer alternatives for life long addicts. It does absolute wonders for their quality of life.

The crux just is, that in this discussion, sober is the most important metric for a lot of people. Overlooking not just the end of life problems, but the simple truth that without drugs, a lot of those addicts would have killed themselves already. Drugs arent just a fly trap for the careless, they are a haven in the storm for the desperate. A shitty haven for sure, but in some situations less bad then the alternative. That distinction explains a lot of why all the warnings get ignored and all of the "education" on the topic finds only deaf ears.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#369

Post by dilznoofus »

_yb2s wrote: post #333
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Society wide problems cause a huge fraction of the population to experience severe emotional trauma and the process of addiction largely seems to be an experience of trying to escape the feelings associated with that. So then why weren't addiction problems more widespread historically, like say 1900-1960? Life tended to have a lot more of what are generally considered traumatic experiences back then.

Weren't they? Perhaps they were just using different drugs, e.g. alcohol. You can't use a drug to escape negative feelings if you don't have access to it.

And perhaps nobody cared enough to log it, especially in the lower classes

You just shrugged off opium dens, or moonshining, or whatever substances could be had. The demon liquor and marijuana and heroin were all well known.

But, people didn't care about the poor. Whether or not they do now, they do collect data about them. We don't necessarily have great understanding about prevalence of who used them how often, so we shouldn't pretend there was a significant difference unless there's a reason to. Nostalgia or rose-colored glasses or pretences of a better time aren't valid reasons to break from expectation.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#370

Post by ethanbond »

asveikau wrote: post #363
ethanbond wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it not someone’s fault when they get addicted after choosing to do a known-addictive substance? “Not their fault” certainly doesn’t describe all addicts. They don’t need to be faultless to deserve compassion.

The more life experience I have the more I conclude that assessing the existence and extent of someone's fault is a pointless exercise. People tend to exhaust enormous amounts of pointless energy stuck in that place. Your last sentence drives it home. They deserve compassion. Who cares about subjective assessment of fault once you reach that conclusion?

Largely agreed.

To your last point, people who believe having an internal locus of control is useful for preventing (not necessarily treating) addiction.

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