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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#361

Post by sethhochberg »

treis wrote: post #298
pornel wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course Qualcomm being chronically incapable of making fast CPUs doesn't help, but partly it's just a chicken-egg problem of lack of ARM-optimized Windows software caused by the lack of ARM Windows users. Having a decent devkit may help bring more native ARM software, which may make these underpowered machines struggle less with speed and compatibility.

Genuinely asking because I don't know. Is there anything that's better about ARM or is the Apple/TSMC being better than Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Samsung, et. al.?

Its less about the instruction set and more about the specific implementation choices and market they're competing in. Apple has been doing ARM SoC design for a long time and was an early 64-bit adopter, buys tons of bleeding-edge capacity from fabs, and is willing to design in more expensive features like tons of onboard cache that they can make up on margins in other ways because Apple sells complete devices, while Qualcomm etc are mostly in the business of selling chips. So while there are fundamental differences between x86 and ARM, the bigger differences are more "Apple vs other ARM SoC designers" than something fundamentally different about ARM that Apple takes advantage of.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#362

Post by encryptluks2 »

sylens wrote: post #358
MBCook wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

An Intel laptop can be had for like $200

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#363

Post by josephg »

karmelapple wrote: post #322
MBCook wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

Who went back to AMD/Intel stuff? Any Apple user is far away from that, and comparing the performance, heat, noise, and battery differences between my Intel and Apple Silicon computers, I have no desire to regularly use an Intel machine until they make some stratospheric leap. (I still need it for some x86 vagrant boxes I have though!)

I did. I moved over to linux mint for at-the-desk programming (though I still use a macbook while traveling). My linux desktop idles at 0% CPU, which is something macos hasn't been able to deliver for 5+ years at this point.

Current generation Intel / AMD desktop CPUs have similar performance to apple's M1/M2 chips. They just consume a lot more power. (Though apparently applying a slight underclock makes a huge difference.)

I'm not sure how recent intel / AMD laptop performance compares, but a PC with an x86 chip is still a great choice.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#364

Post by tootie »

MBCook wrote: post #309
Nican wrote: post #260

Jeff Atwood 5 years ago: "the Qualcomm hardware people told Google internally they were 5 years behind Apple on hardware. This was about 1.5 years ago, but I believe that's about right." ( https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1050538041796788225 ) And benchmarks continue to show: https://twitter.com/slightlylate/status/1584350796233117696

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

That can't possibly be a useful benchmark. There are hundreds of Android models with different batteries and power characteristics. Was it just CPU power efficiency?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#365

Post by dmitrygr »

vinkelhake wrote: post #216
awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

Sure, Apple's got the superior ARM silicon. But an alternative take is that this SoC is plenty fast for non-poweruser desktop use (which should be the majority of users). You don't need top shelf performance for browsing the web, checking your emails or writing some docs.

> You don't need top shelf performance for browsing the web, checking your emails or writing some docs

DIDN’T

Until electron

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#366

Post by Scharkenberg »

vetinari wrote: post #340
sedatk wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which Linux can run on perfectly fine.

Depends if it will enforce Windows' CA only, or if it will trust UEFI 3rd party CA too. See also "Secured-core PCs".

Despite much FUD spread in Linux nerd circles online, Linux can run just fine on it.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#367

Post by awill »

Spivak wrote: post #199
kcb wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8cx gen 3 is definitely faster multicore and about the same singlecore. The 8cx chips also have a wider memory bus and pretty massive GPU in comparison the the mobile parts. Looks like also far better cooling than a phone or thin and light laptop here as well.

Yeah I don't know what the parent is talking about Gen 3 is lightyears ahead of Gen 1 of this line of chips. Passmark has it at 4k for Gen 1 and 11k for Gen 3.

If you're referring to my comment, I'm not comparing the 8cx gen 3 to 8cx gen1, I'm comparing 8cx gen 3 (this desktop/laptop chip) to 8 gen 1 (QCOMM's flagship phone SoC).

As I said in my comment, QCOMM's naming sucks. cx is their desktop/laptop line. They have no designation for their phone line, so the confusion isn't surprising.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#368

Post by uni_rule »

sylens wrote: post #358
MBCook wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

I understand the sentiment but a dead ssd won't permanently brick a large portion of x86 laptops.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#369

Post by tootie »

sylens wrote: post #358
MBCook wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

It is astonishing to me that people are out there buying Intel PC laptops when the M1 MBA can be had for <$1000

Well, $1000 upfront plus $100 a year for the right to develop apps.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#370

Post by kevinsundar »

derefr wrote: post #347
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm okay with Microsoft failing at projects like this. We don't need another Apple-like presence on the market. Personally I’m not ok with being locked out of potential computing power by platform so I can’t get excited as MS struggles to keep up. It’s either MS keeps up or the future ahead is dark.

> It’s either MS keeps up or the future ahead is dark. You say that as if Apple will become some sort of PC-market hegemon, driving consumers and professionals to use its proprietary ARM hardware and OS despite having traditional Windows- or Linux-based workflows, simply because Apple's ARM is just so much faster . Here's the third option: nobody cares what Apple is doing over in its corner of the PC market; the PC m…

This still misses a large risk for Microsoft. Business software is moving to web apps. The orders of 1000+ PCs you've described will be soon replaced by BYO personal devices (who's owners prefer vertical integration like Apple for ease of consumer use) and Chromebook esque devices which are even cheaper than traditional PCs for a business.

Microsoft cannot keep doing what they are doing.

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