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Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

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Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#361

Post by pvaldes »

Europe is big. Maybe not everybody needs to pass this winter in Swedden. Maybe the governments should start programs to help some vulnerable groups of people, elders for example, to pass the winter in the South. Elders and remote workers living for a two or three months in a warmer place would save energy. Not necessarily at 50m of a beach or in a five stars hotel; the Mediterranean is full of empty houses in November. They even have some Russian palaces that are casually empty now.

As long as is a voluntary program, promoting "migration" of a percentage of people between Mediterranean and Northern European countries, in the worst months of winter could be part of the solution.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#362

Post by trasz »

jozvolskyef wrote: post #77
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poor and vulnerable people in places like Austria, France, Germany, Netherlands, etc. receive generous welfare and assistance from the government to not starve and freeze to death. They'll be fine. In Eastern Europe, not so much.

Are you implying that France, Germany, and Netherlands don't have homeless and elderly people? These two groups are the most at risk of dying form cold. edit: I'm glad that you mention Eastern Europe, which is where I come from. Paradoxically, more people die from cold in the West, because their milder climates don't force them to invest in insulation. edit2: the previous claim may be based on flawed methology, see h…

At least here in Cambridge social services literally rent hotel rooms for homeless folks when it gets dangerously cold.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#363

Post by jwatt »

thrown_22 wrote: post #245

There are far too many people who don't understand the difference between power and energy. If you give me a lump of coal you give me power. If I burn that coal I get power. Renewable energy is cheap. Renewable power isn't. Nuclear energy is expensive. Nuclear power isn't. You can't run a modern economy on renewables because you can't turn off society when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow. Europe is no…

What? Power is the rate at which energy is supplied. Power and energy from one source are both exactly proportional to power and energy, respectively, from another source. Fuel, or cost of infrastructure, of whatever it is you're referring to here when you say "energy", isn't energy.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#364

Post by brnt »

yakak wrote: post #331
derefr wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of Googling suggests that Switzerland doesn't have a beef industry. Steak costs more in Switzerland than pretty much anywhere else in the world, as it has to be imported (no local industry), and the tariffs on it are also very high. Of course, they have cows, for milk, for the cheese industry that they do have. But raising dairy cattle has only a fraction of the impact that beef cattle do (as you're not constan…

Just over 80% of beef consumed in Switzerland is produced in Switzerland.

Most animal feeds (by calorie) going into that beef: not produced in Switzerland though.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#365

Post by redleader55 »

Someone wrote: post #27
bombcar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it is cost effective going forward to install two meters and panels on every house with one being “essential” and the other being “intermittent” so the power company has the option of blacking out the intermittent boxes only. I’d rather have all my computers, lights, etc shut down than my whole house.

Firstly, how would you keep consumers honest about what’s essential? Secondly, I think “essential” will depend on the duration of the blackout. For a blackout of a few hours, keeping WiFi running so that work from home can continue probably is more essential than heating a water boiler. If the blackout takes a few days, that may change.

A blackout is not just "someone shutting off your lights". It means the grid is down. And to bring the grid back up, there is a lot of effort (and energy use). If you're lucky the part of the grid with problems is just separated from the rest, but if you get 2-3 zones separated, you might end up with islands and then it will take hours and maybe days to bring it back up. Bringing up the grid from a blackout might not be possible/hard with a majority renewable power in the grid - the power source is just not reliable enough, for example the wind might stop blowing when you need the power to connect with the neighbouring region and obtain frequency sync.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#366

Post by midislack »

Gwypaas wrote: post #241
kennend3 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is also "pro-nuclear" it is upsetting to see this take place. The "anti-nuclear" camp has won, but based on what sort of logical argument? Fear? what about Chernobyl? It is one thing to be "anti-nuclear" but they failed to provide alternatives. "WIND" or "Solar" is not going to replace 3,500 MW of nuclear power without damaging a LOT of land. Now millions face rolling blackouts and energy shortages whe…

Simply cost. If the plants started in the early 2000s would have been delivered on time and budget they would be a huge part of the transition today. Now nuclear costs 3-5x more compared to renewables and is simply not relevant. > "WIND" or "Solar" is not going to replace 3,500 MW of nuclear power without damaging a LOT of land. If land use is what you measure impact based on a much better target is the beef industry…

Hindus might not realize this but Europeans will kill for beef. Like, you're got getting rid of the beef industry, ever, period. I see you.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#367

Post by bArray »

quonn wrote: post #122
bArray wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> German putting some nuclear shutdowns on hold This is precisely what I had been jumping up and down about for years, especially at the beginning of this year. The irony that Germany doesn't want nuclear power internally, yet buys their direct neighbour's nuclear power instead. > France is looking like they might get their fleet back on track by beginning 2023 after they sorted out their corrosion issues Apparently.…

Actually Germany usually exports power to France. In fact many of the nuclear plants in France don‘t work, especially this year.

> Actually Germany usually exports power to France.

When was this last true? Is this net export, or is this just some of France using German electricity?

Germany has been actively shutting down nuclear power stations without replacing their capacity for quite a few years.

If Germany is self sufficient for this winter, why are they beginning to impose energy restrictions on government buildings? Why are they having so much issue sourcing cheap energy? To me it sounds like a net import situation.

> In fact many of the nuclear plants in France don‘t work, especially this year.

As the thread suggested, this is because they are addressing a corrosion issue. These will at best not be ready till early 2023.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#368

Post by petre »

wizofaus wrote: post #352
kennend3 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the CORE of the energy debate.. People throw out whatever nonsense they like to support their position. "Nuclear costs 3-5x" and as you point out, compared to what? The cost of sitting around for 20 years debating this and not taking any action at all has lead to much worse problems - power shortages. These "anti-nuclear" types fail to apply logic to their debate. I asked how much power is produced by solar d…

Surely the main issue with winter in more northern regions is the significantly reduced period of the day for which any solar-generation is even possible. During the daylight hours there's still more than enough total insolation to heat the small amount of air we need to inside our houses, but you obviously need some form of storage (or incredibly good insulation, arguably a form of storage too) to ensure buildings c…

> During the daylight hours there's still more than enough total insolation to heat the small amount of air we need to inside our houses

I sold solar panel for 10 years. Both solar thermal and PV. This is simply not true. You need to greatly oversize your panels (≥6x) and also have a passive house with a huge storage buffer (>5000 liters). In the summer you end up having to pump the waste heat into a pool. There are also maintenance costs. For PV you need huge amounts of battery storage. It's simply not economical above the 40° parallel to use solar for heating. For DHW or charging your EV it's okay, but in the winter you'll get at most 1/6 the amount of heat or electricity that you get in the summer provided that the panels are not covered in snow.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#369

Post by petre »

koheripbal wrote: post #123
bombcar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it is cost effective going forward to install two meters and panels on every house with one being “essential” and the other being “intermittent” so the power company has the option of blacking out the intermittent boxes only. I’d rather have all my computers, lights, etc shut down than my whole house.

Something similar was done in Canada about 40 years ago with the high-usage lights installed in every home (usually next to the washer/dryer). If the light was on, people paid significantly more. It was very very effective at reducing peak consumption.

Today the lights consume next to nothing compared to HVAC.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#370

Post by ls15 »

bArray wrote: post #367
quonn wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually Germany usually exports power to France. In fact many of the nuclear plants in France don‘t work, especially this year.

> Actually Germany usually exports power to France. When was this last true? Is this net export, or is this just some of France using German electricity? Germany has been actively shutting down nuclear power stations without replacing their capacity for quite a few years. If Germany is self sufficient for this winter, why are they beginning to impose energy restrictions on government buildings? Why are they having so…

Net exporter of electricity, but importer of gas. I think now Germany imports electricity only on 8 days of a year on average.

https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/activities/column/20180302.h...

> If Germany is self sufficient for this winter, why are they beginning to impose energy restrictions on government buildings? Why are they having so much issue sourcing cheap energy? To me it sounds like a net import situation.

It is more complicated than that. If Germany runs out of gas this winter, then the lights in Italy will go out, because Germany, despite of all the issues, is a net exporter of electricity.

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