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Aging programmer

world.hey.com

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Re: Aging programmer

#361
post #358
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was beyond help. That was far from being the only issue.

That's judgemental. Collaboration couldn't have hurt.

I could spend a day doing the hackaton project or I could spend it teaching basic computing to someone who thinks himself an expert and is unwilling to learn. But I can't stop time, so can't do both.

Re: Aging programmer

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's politics - if we take a simple view of humanity over past 10,000 years we have seen a drift from "one strong man owns it all do as he says" to more distributed decision making - different resource allocation from different people - different concepts (trade, communication, cities, writing, money) have made it simpler / easier for more people to be invoked in the efficient allocation of resources I think software…

Software already is a big part of this. The whole stack of any organization is plugged into software. From communication, to organization planning (jira?), to spreadsheets. What you call software literacy is already here, but it’s not code for management. Why would they work in code? I would guess it’ll never be code. If code can handle advanced resource management, then at that point it’s probably AI and there will…

I am amazed to think software literacy is here - I envisage the ability to use all the data sources, access the APIs - yet my own anecdata is most decisions trapped in spreadsheets, processes cutting across different apps and storage layers. It's still a mess.

And because it's such a mess, management is mostly about finding the "truth". If a reasonable version of truth were just there, how many people with managers as a title would we need?

Edit: I would also add that software writing is mostly limited to "coders" - most people in organisations don't have the training, and they don't have the access to the tools (permissions) and see above, why would they want it ! Literacy will be when the domain experts, can code as easily as they can write a report and do so to enhance their own needs.

Re: Aging programmer

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software already is a big part of this. The whole stack of any organization is plugged into software. From communication, to organization planning (jira?), to spreadsheets. What you call software literacy is already here, but it’s not code for management. Why would they work in code? I would guess it’ll never be code. If code can handle advanced resource management, then at that point it’s probably AI and there will…

I am amazed to think software literacy is here - I envisage the ability to use all the data sources, access the APIs - yet my own anecdata is most decisions trapped in spreadsheets, processes cutting across different apps and storage layers. It's still a mess. And because it's such a mess, management is mostly about finding the "truth". If a reasonable version of truth were just there, how many people with managers a…

It might be helpful to have a new term for what you describe. While literacy is a part of your vision, it’s not the most lacking part. As you alluded to before many in management know how to code, even up to the Gates and Zucks of the world, and yet here we are without them coding. What you’re dreaming of is the organization and accessibility of data/APIs. And even if you made everyone on earth software literate as you describe that in and of itself wouldn’t help the data accessibility problem.

So how can we get to a world where every decision a manager makes can be informed by an API? Hard to imagine.

Furthermore, I don’t quite agree that managements job can be reduced to truth finding. There’s just as much if not more trade-offs, values, accountability, human management (will there even be an API for 2 of my reports aren’t getting along?), etc. The world is complex and messy, too much so to be 100% defined in code.

I don’t see how this can be distilled into an API worth managements time without very strict schema and behavioral restrictions/enforcement or without AI that does the simplification and aggregation for you.

Re: Aging programmer

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, programmers are paid better than most people and early retirement is often possible. A lot of programmers don’t need to work into their 60s. In my own case, when I have enough money to retire it’s going to be hard to convince me to keep working.

I know quite a few engineers who simply no longer need to work ever again, and are working just for "funemployment".

I've been playing... (I mean, I've been) working with computers for decades.

My basic philosophy is that I'd probably be sitting in front of the silly thing anyway. Might as well be paid for it.

Re: Aging programmer

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software already is a big part of this. The whole stack of any organization is plugged into software. From communication, to organization planning (jira?), to spreadsheets. What you call software literacy is already here, but it’s not code for management. Why would they work in code? I would guess it’ll never be code. If code can handle advanced resource management, then at that point it’s probably AI and there will…

I am amazed to think software literacy is here - I envisage the ability to use all the data sources, access the APIs - yet my own anecdata is most decisions trapped in spreadsheets, processes cutting across different apps and storage layers. It's still a mess. And because it's such a mess, management is mostly about finding the "truth". If a reasonable version of truth were just there, how many people with managers a…

Also some tangentially related discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32987094

Re: Aging programmer

#367
Aging, schmaging... 50 is a whippersnapper! I have had a long career in IT, starting (as a Cobol programmer in 1968 ie before the "aging programmer" was born!). Later I had my own systems consultancy, "retiring" some years ago. Never could leave the computer far behind and used Excel quite a bit but thought there should be a better way for some of these jobs. About 2 years ago, I started to learn Python, totally from the net and have written at least 150 scripts since then. At age 76, I have a new love (Python) and enjoy discovering new methods almost daily! THAT is an aging programmer! But it is keeping me young, I think...

Re: Aging programmer

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen a lot of older programmers. They can wind up working as a team of one because they’re productive enough to do the work of an entire team. I’ve seen this a lot. Hire older dev. Older dev has decades of experience. Older dev creates new product from scratch in a couple weeks. Another issue is that mentoring is focused on junior devs by senior (6-8 years of experience) devs. So you’re less likely to have a sen…

I’m kind of in this boat. I’ve been doing this for 25 years now (jeez). Mentoring a dev with 6 to 8 years experience is a pain in the butt (yes. I know. Not all of you). While I’ve got a pretty good memory, a lot of the times I don’t have a direct or complete answer for their question. I’ll have a tingle of a memory that is similar to their question. So I’ll give them that as a starting point and tell them how I’d ap…

Interesting.. do you have pair programming sessions in your company ? to accelerate routine problem solving ?

Re: Aging programmer

#369
I started in this field at 27, which was 38 years ago this past Summer. Do the math.

I still enjoy it most days, like always, there are days where nothing clicks, or as happens in the embedded field, the hardware just won't cooperate.

It has just been constant learning from day 1, and I think that, as much as anything, still keeps it fun. After 38 years, I still learn something new regularly. Perhaps because it I chose to work in embedded development that is even more true. New chips, new technology, it changes constantly.

Most of what I have done in my life, so far all in the field of communications, is already obsolete. T-carrier systems (E1/DS1/DS0)? SONET (Does anyone use SONET these days)? ATM (not the money machines...)? K56 modems? I guess some people still use DSL. IS95 cell service?

Constant change, constant learning. Yet the fundamentals at the bottom remain, so there is always this stable ground to stand on.

I have reached a point where I no longer want to lead, I no longer want to spend countless hours in meetings. I just want to have features to develop, technical problems to solve. And people younger than me to work with.

As you get older, always seek out organizations with people much younger than you. They are a joy to work with. And don't be grumpy, don't make assumptions, and don't insist on giving out 'advice' unless you are asked.

But do introduce them to the company 401k, and any employee stock plans. And do let them know about the concept of 'same day sales' on exercised shares. Their education will have given them a good technology jump start, but schools are still deficient on personal finance. Don't pry into their finances, but guide them toward good early saving behavior. Trust me, they will thank you five years down the road.

Re: Aging programmer

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen a lot of older programmers. They can wind up working as a team of one because they’re productive enough to do the work of an entire team. I’ve seen this a lot. Hire older dev. Older dev has decades of experience. Older dev creates new product from scratch in a couple weeks. Another issue is that mentoring is focused on junior devs by senior (6-8 years of experience) devs. So you’re less likely to have a sen…

I have 20 yoe but happy to be mentored by someone with much less. There is too much to learn out there, so good chance the less experienced engineer can help me too.

This. Completely. I have 38 yoe but I still encounter young people with fresh ideas. Keep that open mind. I have met some old engineers that turned into grumps (don't be one of them) but most of the older technical people I work with regularly find joy, both in their work, and through their coworkers.
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