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Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

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Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#361

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Consumers don't have any transparency into labor or environmental conditions. We can't even see a bill of materials for our products much less information on the labor or environmental conditions. The problem is systemic--the rules incentivize bad outcomes; litigating blame is pointless and distracting: fix the rules and move on.

That is not true. We all know China has poor environmental protections and low wages, and yet we choose to buy products made in China. And the consumers who don't care are also voters who don't care, so the rules won't be fixed. But a few powerful people could create huge changes all on their own. Holding them responsible is not pointless, it's our best hope for change.

> That is not true. We all know China has poor environmental protections and low wages, and yet we choose to buy products made in China.

It's 100% true, and we often buy from China because overwhelmingly there simply aren't alternatives, the alternatives are prohibitively difficult to find, the alternative is another developing country with similar labor and environmental policies, or the alternative is laundered through a country with good regulation (a car is "manufactured" in America but all of its components--the bulk of its value--are produced in developing countries without regulation).

> And those consumers are also voters. The rules won't be fixed because most people don't care either as consumers or as voters.

Right, but they don't have the same access to politicians that corporations do. This is a different and worse systemic problem. Moreover, corporations run campaigns to shift public opinion away from effectual policy. In the 70s bottling companies ran campaigns which argued, as you are arguing, that litter was a consumer problem rather than a industrial problem (e.g., the "crying Indian" advert). The cigarette industry ran a campaign that insisted that the high rate of home fires are caused by a deficiency of highly carcinogenic flame retardants in home furnishings. Similarly, the fossil fuel industry currently runs campaigns which seek to make climate change an issue of personal responsibility ("we don't need legislation, we just need consumers to decide to switch to veganism and give up their cars").

> But a few powerful people could create huge changes all on their own. Hold them responsible is not pointless, it's our best hope for change.

I strongly disagree. Our best hope for change is public policy, notably border adjustments. If you want to protest at Cupertino, be my guest but that's wholly inadequate.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others said, it may be allowed, and I did not know either ways but it was a rhetorical point. Now even if it is allowed, suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Once that happens, it can be easily demagogued.

suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Actually, probably. If the item meets the specs and the price, that's what matters. Just as there is no shortage of federal buildings, and even military installations named after Confederate things. This HN discussion illustrates how bringing up Confederate themes, you can really tell when someone isn't an American.

I’m an American, but not involved in any kind of federal purchasing. I would have assumed that a federal purchaser would make up a reason not to buy my otherwise-perfect product if it had some unpopular statement on it, like a Confederate flag.

Do you know of any counter examples where a company was able to make a successful bid with a product that had good fit, but an inconvenient non-functional addon like that?

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#363

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> they are making this choice because they don't way to pay the consequences of it. And that "cannot" is a short way to state that. I don't think that's a short way of saying the same thing though, for the kind of consequences you mean at least. Imagine if I were a vegan for ethical reasons. It'd be fine for me to say "I don't eat meat", but a lie to say "I can't eat meat", since I'd be perfectly capable of doing so,…

Someone with alpha-gal can absolutely eat meat. Nothing is stopping them from chewing and swallowing meat. It would be a terrible idea, with drastic consequences. But they absolutely can.

Sure. What I was trying to distinguish was between something that would cause real harm for reasons outside of your control, versus something that goes against some principles you made up for yourself but with no other consequences.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#364

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As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? We make decisions to curtail free speech everyday so how's this different?

I'm not American, so I may be missing some details, but is that actually not allowed? Or is it rather the case that some people may not like that, so companies try to avoid upsetting some customers?

Yes, we can put whatever odious symbols on our products.

The Confederate flag is a bit weird because there's enough of the population that apparently doesn't see it that way, so some stores will even display products that have it. (Personally I find it to be an awful symbol and wouldn't stick around if I saw it displayed).

An example that is more like what you've described is something like a Nazi swastika -- technically you can sell something with a swastika on it (I'm 99.9% sure) but almost no stores would be willing to put it on the shelves, certainly no major chains or whatever.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#365
post #320

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There is this human convention about "can/cannot" that assumes the reader is able to figure out the nuance of it. If I say, "I can't walk it the street naked", I'm expecting you to understand the underlying causes. I'm not expecting that I have to explain to you that, yes, nothing prevent me physically to walk in the street naked, but indeed, I chose every day not to do it because I don't want to pay the social and/o…

political issues between Muslim & Jews There are no political issues between muslim and jews. You maybe meant : - there are political issues between the jewish state and it's muslim majority neighbours - there is a conflict between jews and muslims in Palestine and Israel

> there is a conflict between jews and muslims in Palestine and Israel

There's a conflict between the settlers/gentrifiers (and their police State, military industrial complex, and security apparatus) and the rest of the population. From what i hear there is still an anti-nationalist/anti-colonization/anti-war jewish movement in Israel, what remains of a once-strong internationalist socialist/anarchist jewish movement.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#366

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It amazes me how quickly people online are willing to start ww3. It seems like it's not the world leaders we have to worry about, it's the fucking commenters. Yes it should be picked up but the US can't just go in swinging with China. Nobody wins.

Yes, we should just appease the people that will attempt to end the world if they don’t get their way. I recall an appeasement policy in Europe didn’t work so great in the 1930s.

When open conflict with China would also "end the world" the exact same could be applied to OP. You want a world in which China is not appeased, and you're okay with ending it all if that's what it takes.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#367

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Taiwan is a sovereign country by definition. Sovereignty is something you observe, not something you declare. A regime that is successfully able to maintain control of its territory and prevent its territory from being controlled by anyone else, for a n indefinite period of time, is by definition sovereign. That is what sovereignty is. Taiwan's regime has been able to control its territory for decades. PRC can claim…

> Taiwan is a sovereign country by definition. There is nothing "by definition" when talking about the legality of sovereignty of countries. Is Palestine a sovereign State, if "it is by definition"? > Sovereignty is something you observe, not something you declare You are confusing sovereignty (or trying to confuse the readers on purpose) with being a recognized sovereign country, which is a legal construct, we have…

> There is nothing "by definition" when talking about the legality of sovereignty of countries.

No, neither I nor the parent were talking about "legality" just sovereignty. This "legal" sovereignty is a concept you and you alone have introduced to the discussion, and frankly I think it's a pretty useless and nonsense concept in practical terms. (There is no world government, after all, and laws are different in every country, so legality at an international level is a kind of meaningless philosophical question in the absence of someone able and willing to enforce it)

Please look up "sovereignty" in the dictionary: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sovereignty

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#368
post #166

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I don't think shouting Whataboutism whenever someone points out US-centric points of view or double standards makes for an interesting conversation. It's become a lazy way to avoid conversation and relevant comparisons of behavior of the different world powers.

Well, in all fairness, it is a powerful way to change the topic while also getting people to sow doubt in a major source of your criticism in the first place, in political contexts. Plus it comes across as a bit of a juvenile debate tactic, IMO. I certainly became a bit of a "whataboutist" when I was younger and coming to terms of realizing that the U.S. is not "the land of the free" and that they, too, can lie. But…

I understand what you're saying, but let's see the other side:

I -- like many others in tech and even in HN -- don't live in the US, and don't have any obligations towards the democratic system they have over there, or their government, just like the US has been historically a mixed bag towards us Latin Americans, often undermining our own democratic institutions when they weren't aligned with Washington or various American business.

So yes, I wish you the best of democracies, hopefully one that is respectful of other countries choices and sovereignty, but I'm not responsible for it, and if my criticisms undermine US democracy or their electoral system, then how weak must they really be!

So with fresh Latin American eyes, a lot of what the US says and does reeks of hypocrisy. It's not "Whataboutism" to remind everyone about this, every time a government official says something about China, Russia or whatever country "not following the rules", ignoring or rejecting international treaties, or using threat of military force to achieve their goals. "Well, yeah" -- we can claim with knowledge of our history -- "but the US also does this."

And it's not a "rebellious phase" or Whataboutism, it's a very apt remark.

Stopping all conversations about this because "now we are talking about Afghanistan/Russia/China/Saudi Arabia, not the US!" feels lazy to me.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#369
post #96

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If Trump had exchanged Taiwan for Puerto Rico, we could, but missed opportunity.

yeahhh I'm going to need Puerto Rico's parallel tax structure for as long as possible so if we could not alter their territorial status and also keep Congress split on everything that would be greeaaaaat just keep posting "red waaaave" on your instagram account and "blue waaaave" on your twitter account so that everyone stays in their respective echo chamber, I think at least till 2025 would be good for me, I'll prob…

Clicks the "learn more" button

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like mainland China, even still claims Tibet as its territory. They do mainland China one better, they claim Mongolia as well. See supporting references in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560

Yes, it's a lie as CCP has had no meaningful governmental role in Taiwan so far.

So what? That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. Taipei's "One China" position merely acknowledges this fact, without committing to any stance that the CCP is the legitimate government of any country.
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