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Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

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Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#361

Post by honkdaddy »

standardUser wrote: post #354
messe wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think most people can easily tell the difference between the widespread colonization that occurred for hundreds of years and whatever historical anomalies you have in mind with that leading question. I was referring to Ireland, whose colonisation[1][2] during the 16th and 17th centuries served almost as a prototype for future British expansion. Gaelic culture was nearly wiped out due to British policies, and…

No one ever said there wasn't West-on-West subjugation. There's a rich history of that, too. But that is not what we historically consider to be the multi-hundred year era of colonization than killed untold millions and impacted the lives of almost every non-Western person on the planet.

When you say non-Western, you really do mean non-White, correct? I feel as if there's a racial bush being beaten around here that one may as well go and point out.

The point I think you're trying to make is that different rules apply for cultural appropriation for white people than they do for people of color. Would you agree?

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#362

Post by analog31 »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #341

Reading the comments, one argument I keep seeing in different form is essentially “corporations/the west are hollowing out/perverting/distorting/using only some parts of buddhist teachings, and this is bad”. Why? Why is modifying an idea, even by twisting it to be the very opposite of it’s “original meaning” ( I don’t believe that exists, everything is a modified version of something else) an intrinsically bad thing?…

I came here to say something similar: Do the rules of religion prohibit molding any religion to serve any purpose? What rules? Your religion can be anything you want it to be. Moreover, nobody can interpret the doctrines or traditions of your religion for you, unless they actually believe in precisely the same religion.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#363

Post by NoraCodes »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #356
NoraCodes wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you would think that, as it's not what I said at all. Rather, I suspect based on this opinion that I disagree with some things you take as axiomatic, and vice versa, and therefore we have little to learn from arguing with each other.

When you said "ontological" I was reminded of a phrase I often encountered in leftist circles, the assertion some people are "ontologically evil". Precisely because they operate from a different set of axioms. > therefore we have little to learn from arguing with each other In a way I agree but at the same time I can't help but think exploring the axioms underlying moral foundations is important. Either to come to a…

> When you said "ontological" I was reminded of a phrase I often encountered in leftist circles, the assertion some people are "ontologically evil".

If that's the first thing you think of when you see the word "ontological," I suggest you read some more philosophy before pondering moral axioms.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#364

Post by messe »

honkdaddy wrote: post #361
standardUser wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one ever said there wasn't West-on-West subjugation. There's a rich history of that, too. But that is not what we historically consider to be the multi-hundred year era of colonization than killed untold millions and impacted the lives of almost every non-Western person on the planet.

When you say non-Western, you really do mean non-White, correct? I feel as if there's a racial bush being beaten around here that one may as well go and point out. The point I think you're trying to make is that different rules apply for cultural appropriation for white people than they do for people of color. Would you agree?

> I feel as if there's a racial bush being beaten around here that one may as well go and point out.

Aww, why'd you have to go and point that out? I was having fun beating around that bush...

But more seriously, I would have preferred to hear that from the poster. I specifically avoided putting those words in their mouth, despite being tempted to a few times; and also to avoid getting dragged down into a debate of whatever "white" means.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#365

Post by honkdaddy »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #357
honkdaddy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard the power dynamics argument before and admittedly it’s never held much weight for me. There are just too many edge cases for a heuristic like that to make any sense, in my mind. So culturally powerless people may extract from culturally powerful people until what point? If a Ukrainian appropriates a part of Russian culture to be their own, who is the victim here? Recently, being Ukrainian has become a much…

> My personal rule is just not to disrespect people and parts of their culture they find important In the Simbari culture, it is considered important for young boys to be taken away from their families, be beaten and forced to fellate the older members of the tribe. Does your personal rule of not disrespecting "people and parts of their culture" hold in their case? Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simbari_people

In Hebrew culture, it is considered important to remove part of the genitals of an infant boy in a long and bloody ceremony. Personally I'd never subjugate myself or my kin to it, but I know plenty of Jewish people and have never tried to debate them about it.

If a Simbari person wanted to have an earnest discussion about whether the practice you're describing was acceptable, I'd of course tell them that I think it's barbaric and insane. But if you're asking whether I'd seek out Simbari people out to tell them I feel that way? No, I would not. So my heuristic holds true, but I do appreciate the gotcha :)

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#366

Post by honkdaddy »

burrows wrote: post #267
honkdaddy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard the power dynamics argument before and admittedly it’s never held much weight for me. There are just too many edge cases for a heuristic like that to make any sense, in my mind. So culturally powerless people may extract from culturally powerful people until what point? If a Ukrainian appropriates a part of Russian culture to be their own, who is the victim here? Recently, being Ukrainian has become a much…

> My personal rule is just not to disrespect people and parts of their culture they find important. What even is named by the word “disrespect”? Is disrespecting me just any behavior that I call “disrespectful”? Seems like bullshit to me.

To me, disrespecting you is any behaviour which _I_ find disrespectful. If I was mistaken, I'd apologize. I can't control how you feel, burrows, I can only control what I say.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#367

Post by squabbles »

markdown wrote: post #330
squabbles wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no inappropriate way to use clothes you own, unless you're using it to strangle someone. The people who get upset about people wearing things from "their" culture are always deracinated diaspora with no real connection to the culture. People who are healthily embedded in a culture don't get upset about foreigners "misusing" their cultural bric-a-brac, they have real lives to attend to. And if you're getting…

Tell that to the Americans who remove photos of Pacific Island people wearing their traditional clothing despite genitalia being covered. Tell that to every human on HN and see if they start wearing their nighties and undergarments, and bikinis to their silicon valley workplaces. It's not a free-for-all, so don't pretend that cultural norms don't exist. Jeez, this "I'll take what I want and fuck ya'll" American cultu…

What an inane comparison. Jobs are voluntary, and you're free to quit over the dress code.

And there's no way to decide what's "permitted" use of a piece of apparel anyways. Cultural significance changes within cultures, and individuals within it are not uniformly sensitive to informal use. What would you do to iconoclasts? They're culturally appropriating too. Are they allowed to introduce lighthearted use?

The "cultural appropriation" idea is the worst form of ultra-conservative hand wringing dressed up in progressive language. No actual harm is done by "misusing" clothes. This is just an excuse made up by moral busy bodies to go on yet another obnoxious crusade.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#368

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #349
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural exchange of food and clothes and such is great. I’m a lot more sympathetic to the complaint here, though, which seems to be that people have taken the surface level of Buddhist religious practice while tossing out all the parts that make it meaningful to the interviewee. I’m imagining how I would feel if my company hosted prayer sessions where you speak to your unconscious mind rather than God and the sign o…

> which seems to be that people have taken the surface level of Buddhist religious practice while tossing out all the parts that make it meaningful to the interviewee I agree this is happening. Why is this an intrinsically bad thing? It seems to me to be just how cultural exchanges work. An idea comes, parts of it are kept, others removed, and others modified. Why is stripping an idea of it’s “original meaning” ( I d…

I am! That specific scenario is complicated, because churches that display a gay flag never do so to the exclusion of prayer and loving Jesus and all the normal parts of the religion, and quite a few of them will tell you that they're flying it precisely because they love Jesus. With groups like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, I think conservative Christians have every right to be unhappy and I wish people wouldn't appropriate Christianity in that way.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#369

Post by yunohn »

lmm wrote: post #294
yunohn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I’m an atheist. I don’t believe this is the gotcha that you think it is. Every single school of thought, religion or otherwise, has good and bad parts. Taking the overwhelmingly good aspects of Buddhism to understand how to lead a better life, is not invalidated because the Buddha said one thing you dislike. It’s naivety to desire 100% perfection from everyone/thing.

Many religions claim that their scriptures have some special merit or perfection that goes beyond ordinary schools of thought. (I don't disagree that this is naive; it's nevertheless often a central claim).

But that’s exactly my point - as a reader/learner, you don’t need to be a literalist. You can choose to imbibe the useful aspects and move past dogma.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#370

Post by Shared404 »

lurquer wrote: post #345
thisiscorrect wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow these arguments about cultural appropriation only ever go one way. I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners adopt -- and benefit from -- various Western schools of thought. I've never felt the urge to gate-keep, say, the germ theory of disease from non-Westerners. What right do I have to do that? What right does the author have to gate-keep Buddhism? Why do people do…

> I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners adopt -- and benefit from -- various Western schools of thought. They call it colonization. White liberals prefer nonwhites to be quaint, uneducated, and poor.

> White liberals prefer nonwhites to be quaint, uneducated, and poor.

I feel like this deserves a response. I am going to try to avoid veering into flame war territory, if I fail feel free to downvote/flag.

Also, I'm currently on mobile. I'll try my best on formatting and spelling, but no promises.

Ok, on to the response.

I am a white liberal. What you have listed is the last thing I want - what I want is to ensure we continue to maintain a functioning democracy, ensure that social mobility is possible for the largest number of people possible, help as many people as possible become educated, and ensure companies do not gain too much power.

Verbiage like you just used is very comparable to verbiage like ACAB and "All republicans are fascist".

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