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How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

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Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spouse of a third year resident here. My wife has volunteered at several primary care (i.e. generic doctor) clinics in Manhattan and nearby area (Queens, Astoria, Brooklyn and even in Boundbrook, NJ). These are all owned by the doctors. She worked in all kinds of operations of a clinic from billing, sending prescription, taking patient history, etc. Back-of-the-napkin calculation based on my wife's experience -- if y…

There's no way a single assistant could handle 40 patients per day. At that volume, you'd have at least 2 assistants. Malpractice insurance can be way the hell more expensive than that: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/small-business/how-much-i... Rent will probably be another $60K per year. The receptionist will want to be paid, as will the biller. If you're lucky, one of them will have time to be the designated p…

Like you said, most of these clinics have 2 assistants who do pretty much everything (accepting calls, submitting prescriptions, etc.) Sometimes, the doctor will also bring in an aspiring resident (mostly international medical graduates who cannot find clinical experience in the US easily due to their visa status/restrictions) as a volunteer or a paid-under-the-table-for-$12-per-hour to do some miscellaneous stuff around the clinic. But that volunteer's hours are sometimes on a need-base planning (meaning, the doctor will call the volunteer a day or two before if the clinic needs extra help).

Malpractice insurance for internal medicine (general medicine that I'm referring to) is ~$33K-$34K in NY area based on the link you've provided.

Now let's do the math to readjust my estimates.

One full time staff with $30/hr * 2080 hours in a year = $62400 => let's just double that to cover everything like their health insurance and liability insurance so each full time staff costs = $125000/year

2 staff * $125000 = $250000 Rent = $60000 (the doctors sometimes own the practice, but let's just assume it's a rental) Malpractice = $35000 EMR system like eClinicalWorks = $10000 (amortized for upfront and yearly costs; software like eClinicalWorks costs ~$600/month on average)

The total expense of running a primary care (internal medicine) clinic = $250000 + $60000 + $35000 + $10000 = $360000 (let's just say $400K/year)

When I said these clinics on average make $1MM/year (of course, they are all near NYC/NJ metro areas), I truly am underestimating the income these doctors get from each patient visit. As an example, if I visit my physician at NYU Langone for my yearly check-up (at most a 10-mins encounter), the net reimbursement from my insurance they get for my visit (after the insurance company's discount/rate negotiation) is ~$250 without including the lab fees. Out of emergency and convenience, I happened to visit one of these primary care clinic doctors where my wife used to work at, and the doctor charged me $80 (that was back in 2019) in cash for an ear infection check (total of 5-minute encounter) and that's because I paid in cash and because my wife used to work for her. All of these doctors that my wife volunteered at or worked for (she got paid $15/hr max from some of these docs) are making a load of money from these clinics because we know a couple of them personally as well.

Again, I'm not saying you are understating the profit margins. You probably have been working with the clinics in some economically depressed or low-cost-of-living areas. I am only sharing what I know for truth in terms of the income of these primary care clinics in NY/NJ area.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Affordable Care Act introduced the newer perverse incentive of insurance companies tolerating higher prices. Because if you can only pay your execs bonuses based on 20% of your total spend, insurance companies can pay execs more if the underlying claims they're paying cost more. 20% of a $1,000 MRI isn't as juicy to your C levels as 20% of a $10,000 MRI. If this perverse incentive were true, then you would expec…

Having no idea what the real trend is, couldn't any other factors counteract the perverse effect, making both parent's and your observations true at the same time ? For instance rhe sustained efforts that lead to ACA peobably didn't stop there, and more effort surely were made to reduce healthcare cost from there. If ACA could be passed in the first place, it wouldn't be surprising if other effective actions were als…

>Having no idea what the real trend is, couldn't any other factors counteract the perverse effect, making both parent's and your observations true at the same time ?

Absolutely. There could be other factors that are counteracting the effect, including those within the ACA itself since the bill contains many changes to healthcare, not just the restriction on medical loss ratios.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Affordable Care Act introduced the newer perverse incentive of insurance companies tolerating higher prices. Because if you can only pay your execs bonuses based on 20% of your total spend, insurance companies can pay execs more if the underlying claims they're paying cost more. 20% of a $1,000 MRI isn't as juicy to your C levels as 20% of a $10,000 MRI. If this perverse incentive were true, then you would expec…

From your second link, except in the last year, healthcare spend has been outpacing inflation by more than 2 to 1. The economics of scale are backwards in healthcare, I find that perverse. UnitedHealth total comp have been rising for C levels, except the CEO who recently left, who stayed around 17mil. https://www.salary.com/tools/executive-compensation-calculat...

I think we can agree that something will need to change as medical trend cannot outpace inflation forever. I don't think the issue is with executive compensation, because even if insurance companies magically could perform all their services for free, you would only reduce premiums by less than 20%.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#364

For anyone looking to download the data, here are a few links: Empire Blue (Anthem): https://www.empireblue.com/machine-readable-file/search/ United Healthcare: https://transparency-in-coverage.uhc.com/ Aetna (Seems like the right page, but I don't see any download links — possibly because they haven't been posted yet): https://health1.aetna.com/app/public/#/one/insurerCode=AETNA... Search keywords: https://www.googl…

Hey has anybody created and open API or just downloaded it all to a single source?

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#365
Why nobody ever talks about how much doctors are overpaid and over valued in this country? Why always demonize insurance companies?

I was in an ER for 7 days, I only saw the doctor 2 times for less than 5 mins each. In the final bill, the most expensive line item was doctor consultation.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#366
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors and Surgeons in America are incredibly highly paid. People love hating insurance and drug companies but the cost of people is driving much of the price.

Disclaimer: I am a physician. Physician salaries represent a small fraction of overall healthcare costs. Nursing/allied health salaries make up the bulk of any hospital’s costs and are often bloated due to powerful unions physicians don’t have. For comparison, Canadian physicians are on average better compensated than American physicians. I practice radiology, a specialty often considered “overpaid” yet my compensati…

My brother and his wife both are doctors in the UK. At 400k you earn about the same pay as 3 or 4 doctors there. https://www.bmj.com/careers/article/the-complete-guide-to-nh.... To me that is a lot of money. I realize lots of tech wages are crazy high too, I dont understand that either.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IPv6 mandate too

That has nothing on Al Gore, who invented the internet! And in much the same way as any other president doing something popular and uncontroversial: it would've happened almost no matter who was at the top. (Point is, most legislation and XOs are largely bipartisan. Policy is driven much more by the machinations of hundreds of thousands of faceless/nameless actors than by the guy at the top. In both good ways and bad…

I agree. 99% 'people at the top' probably don't even know what IP is. Much less IPv6 migration problems.

However, the point of an xyz 'administration' is that they they take credit or blame for the work of faceless bureaucrats.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#368
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the obscurity of the prices is a result of regulation as well. We need less layers of control with "unintended" consequences.

Can you elaborate on the regulations that you are referring to?

Generally the issue with pricing in healthcare is insurance, which has the perverse structure of being consumed as a tax benefit without competition to get patients.

There isn't a specific rule that explains this but there is a whole system that begets this as the most efficient system by the current players.

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#369
post #288

For anyone looking to download the data, here are a few links: Empire Blue (Anthem): https://www.empireblue.com/machine-readable-file/search/ United Healthcare: https://transparency-in-coverage.uhc.com/ Aetna (Seems like the right page, but I don't see any download links — possibly because they haven't been posted yet): https://health1.aetna.com/app/public/#/one/insurerCode=AETNA... Search keywords: https://www.googl…

Thank you thank you thank you! Here's Cigna: https://www.cigna.com/legal/compliance/machine-readable-file... UCLA Health keeps theirs: https://uclahealth.s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/price-transpar... But sadly, still can't find my insurance company's download links. I can't wait to lose a weekend doing something with this data, it's a dream dataset and a perfect example of a very narrow type of project I love doing. I…

Cigna posted a single 570GB gzipped JSON that barely qualifies as machine-readable

Re: How much health insurers pay for almost everything is about to go public

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't follow this argument. thr salient point for me is that people should be able to see prices before they commit to contracting to pay them (e.g. by receiving healthcare). With wages, employees (and employers) get to see their price before committing. So the need for transparency seems like it would need a different justification.

Price transparency is necessary for market participants to observe the movements of the supply and demand curves. For example, declining prices of labor indicate to suppliers of labor to reallocate labor supply to other fields. Increasing prices of labor indicate to suppliers of labor to reallocate labor supply to that field.

thanks for this explanation. it's something I've not thought about before and it's enlightening.
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