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In defense of coding interviews

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Re: In defense of coding interviews

#361

Post by lapcat »

native_samples wrote: post #359
lapcat wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've written at length about this before, so I'll just give a link instead of repeating the whole screed, but it's a misconception to equate interview anxiety with job anxiety. They're distinct and not necessarily correlated. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31377459

It's obviously unpopular, but the brutal reality is that the vast majority of candidates don't panic during interviews and can in fact demonstrate their skills when asked. I've done lots of interviewing and you aren't going to convince me or anyone else actually that breakdowns in an interview are completely irrelevant, especially when all you've been asked to do is demonstrate that you're actually qualified. It's al…

> the vast majority of candidates don't panic during interviews and can in fact demonstrate their skills when asked

Is this actually true? It's been widely and frequently claimed over the years that "199 out of 200 applicants for every programming job can't write code at all. I repeat: they can't write any code whatsoever." https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

> frankly a bit insulting to people who learned to control their emotions

It's frankly a bit ignorant of human psychology to think that people can just "learn" to control their emotions. We're humans, not robots. Yes, you could go to a professional therapist, if you have both the time and money; it could take a lot of both. But if many people have to go to a therapist for the sole purpose of dealing with audition-style coding interviews, then maybe there's something seriously wrong with audition-style coding interviews. It's already bizarre that candidates with many years of experience in the field have to study intensely for job interviews.

> and work under pressure

I explained at length in the link from my previous comment that working under pressure is entirely different from interview pressure.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#362

Post by 2143 »

motogpjimbo wrote: post #209
vletal wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just interviewed for Google and Meta. In total I went through 8 individual coding interviews. With an exception of one, which was a bit too much like a puzzle, I think the assignments were completely fair examples of what I might experience on daily basis. Not at all tailored to people doing competition style programming, which was what I expected after being exposed to HN for years. I have to say I enjoyed both…

If you have to prepare for the interview, doesn't that suggest the assessment isn't representative of day-to-day programming skills? In fact, it suggests the exact opposite. With zero preparation, I could go to an interview with you right now and tell you anything you wanted to know about designing a database schema, how to get any kind of data out of that schema, how to make that data available via an API, how to ca…

As a sibling commenter pointed out, you just described a CRUD app. Web/mobile applications.

It's not hard to do those.

And I suppose for most business cases out there, writing data to the DB and reading it back later is all it takes.

However, there's plenty of other problems where the skillset you mentioned falls short.

For instance, you talked about designing a database schema. Do you know how to design and build a database itself from the ground up? What if that DB has to be distributed, with thousands of writers? How do you ensure consistency and consensus? (These are all solved problems).

Think about Linux kernel developers. Do you think DB schema design is an especially relevant skill for them to have?

Can you come up with a compiler, or your own programming language?

Try building your own text editor, with features like syntax highlighting, undo/redo etc (it takes clever algorithms).

I'm not claiming I can do all of that; just mentioning that the whole scene is much more interesting beyond the horizon.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#363

Post by mihaitodor »

Cd00d wrote: post #349
mihaitodor wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment reminds me of a comic with two vultures who question Mr. Mouse’s claims about the Owl being a predator. It’s not like he ever bothered them. See here: https://twitter.com/nathanwpyle/status/999294987195035649

I appreciate the reference. But, I don't think those are vultures. They are bald eagles. I'm not sure if owls scavenge, but I do know they primarily hunt. Eagles both hunt and scavenge. Vultures primarily scavenge.

The comic could definitely use some annotations :)

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#364

Post by vletal »

mihaitodor wrote: post #337
vletal wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just interviewed for Google and Meta. In total I went through 8 individual coding interviews. With an exception of one, which was a bit too much like a puzzle, I think the assignments were completely fair examples of what I might experience on daily basis. Not at all tailored to people doing competition style programming, which was what I expected after being exposed to HN for years. I have to say I enjoyed both…

This comment reminds me of a comic with two vultures who question Mr. Mouse’s claims about the Owl being a predator. It’s not like he ever bothered them. See here: https://twitter.com/nathanwpyle/status/999294987195035649

Yeah. I might be generalizing a bit, even though I made sure to emphasize that it is my isolated experience.

On the other hand I felt like a sample of 8 different interviewers from different offices and backgrounds felt representative. If it is true that the interviews are overwhelmingly negatively received, what is the probability that I would get more than half of reasonable interviews? Let alone 7/8.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#365

Post by bodge5000 »

vorpalhex wrote: post #27

"Can coding interviews work in an ideal world" which is what the article seems to discuss: sure, probably, this seems like a reasonable approach to what that ideal world might look like: a really carefully chosen question and attempting to understand the process the candidate is using to comprehend their skill. "Do coding interviews work in the actual world in which we live in?" No, fundamentally not. Almost nobody i…

My favourite is "I'll be your google, I'll be your Stack Overflow, when you would usually search something, ask me instead". So you eventually ask them, and they give you a cryptic answer back.

I'm sure Google wouldnt be as successful as they are if their answer to "how do you define an array" was "well think about what you're trying to do here"

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#366

Post by mihaitodor »

vletal wrote: post #364
mihaitodor wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment reminds me of a comic with two vultures who question Mr. Mouse’s claims about the Owl being a predator. It’s not like he ever bothered them. See here: https://twitter.com/nathanwpyle/status/999294987195035649

Yeah. I might be generalizing a bit, even though I made sure to emphasize that it is my isolated experience. On the other hand I felt like a sample of 8 different interviewers from different offices and backgrounds felt representative. If it is true that the interviews are overwhelmingly negatively received, what is the probability that I would get more than half of reasonable interviews? Let alone 7/8.

You're overlooking the fact that you're just one person. Each one of us reacts differently under such conditions and only a minority (which is likely small) happen to excel at this.

The interactions and power dynamics between people differ wildly from person to person. While an interviewer might be the kindest person in the world for candidate A, they might be a total bully for candidate B. I was bullied constantly throughout school snd, whatever cues prompted those kids to pick on me are probably still there, but adults are a bit more subtle, because they can hurt you in other ways. And this is on top of the day-to-day variations, because they might be hungry and the current interview is sitting between them and lunch or maybe they just got slapped down by their boss and want to punch someone or whatever. Based on my own experience, out of the typical 5 rounds of in-person interviews that I went through many times for FAANG companies, one or two ended up being a total shitshow each time, where the interviewer was condescending at best and I don't think they realised it or cared. I was told several times "how easy / trivial" the problem is and that "they're sure I'll have an easy time solving it based on my CV". Maybe the worst ones are when the interviewer smirks at me when they spot dome issue and I can't cope with that.

Now add to this a long streak of never ever getting an offer after dozens of such interviews in spite of putting myself through training sessions and mock interviews over and over. I'm sure I'd get in eventually, if I just kept trying, but do I want a job where I'll be asked to interview people in a similar manner? Even if I refuse to interview people as part of my job, will I really thrive in there? I'm certain this process permeates in one form or another throughout the company culture in various internal management, decisionmaking and promotion processes, but that's a separate discussion.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#367

Post by cyberlurker »

sokoloff wrote: post #47
vorpalhex wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you actually measure 2x or 10x workload while keeping quality the same? It's _very_ easy to measure how fast it takes a ticket to go from "in progress" to "done" but measuring whether code has bugs, or leads to downtime or is just impossible to parse is a different problem. If you never need code to be readable or documented I can write it quite quickly. If you want something other humans can have a hope of ma…

I think everyone who has been in tech for 7 years has a short list of people they’d want on their 4-person tech team and a longer list of people they wouldn’t. That I can’t tell you to two decimal places exactly how much better the first list is than the second doesn’t mean I can’t tell who’s on which list with high fidelity/repeatability.

I love creating these lists in my head. Sometimes when I do a good job, I imagine myself on someone else's good list. Often when I am struggling with something I worry someone is visualizing me on their bad list.

Over time it has made me question if my short list is as good as I think it is. Maybe I am biased and only observed good/bad work for people on either list. Also people change over time and take on new responsibilities that change their work.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#368

Post by ipaddr »

koonsolo wrote: post #340
ipaddr wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are different skill sets. Someone may know and know how to properly use var, let and const according to standards and current trends. They may understand it deeply. But that doesn't mean that they can explain it to you. The question changes to: is what you are testing the actual skill you need? Are you hiring a teacher who is going to explain var,let,const as part of their job or are you hiring someone who need…

> that doesn't mean that they can explain it to you. I'm sorry what? I don't expect them to teach me, I just want them to tell the difference. By the way, the ones that can't say: "they told me to always use let". I'll send them to you :D. Best of luck. > I've never seen a senior developer fired for poor coding. I've seen plenty. If a junior dev needs to help you out of trouble every time, you know there is something…

I've worked in a number of places and people don't have the limitations you believe.

A junior helping a senior? Shame on them? Fire the senior? That sounds really foolish. You realize that junior/senior/etc are labels and someone you hire a junior can know more syntax than a senior in a framework. That's okay that the senior seeks helo.. it's natural and what a senior should do. p You are presenting your company in a bad light and making yourself sound inexperienced.

Could you have reached your limit? Would your methods fly elsewhere? Apply the len to yourself and see where you end up.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#369

Post by koonsolo »

ipaddr wrote: post #368
koonsolo wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that doesn't mean that they can explain it to you. I'm sorry what? I don't expect them to teach me, I just want them to tell the difference. By the way, the ones that can't say: "they told me to always use let". I'll send them to you :D. Best of luck. > I've never seen a senior developer fired for poor coding. I've seen plenty. If a junior dev needs to help you out of trouble every time, you know there is something…

I've worked in a number of places and people don't have the limitations you believe. A junior helping a senior? Shame on them? Fire the senior? That sounds really foolish. You realize that junior/senior/etc are labels and someone you hire a junior can know more syntax than a senior in a framework. That's okay that the senior seeks helo.. it's natural and what a senior should do. p You are presenting your company in a…

When other devs get stuck on something, they come to me or one of the other seniors. And then I or they solve it. Sometimes it's difficult, and sometimes it's a silly oversight. So yeah, I have no problem applying it to myself.

I can't really believe that people here think when you have more years under your belt, you somehow must be good. People get fired in companies because they don't reach the expected level. If you keep them, other colleagues will get frustrated and leave on their own. And then you're stuck with the underperformers.

And yes, everyone has limitations. Some sooner than others. Welcome to reality.

I find the discussions here very silly that somehow you must hire everyone without a technical interview, and never fire anyone because people don't have limitations. Not going to respond anymore.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#370

Post by sokoloff »

cyberlurker wrote: post #367
sokoloff wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think everyone who has been in tech for 7 years has a short list of people they’d want on their 4-person tech team and a longer list of people they wouldn’t. That I can’t tell you to two decimal places exactly how much better the first list is than the second doesn’t mean I can’t tell who’s on which list with high fidelity/repeatability.

I love creating these lists in my head. Sometimes when I do a good job, I imagine myself on someone else's good list. Often when I am struggling with something I worry someone is visualizing me on their bad list. Over time it has made me question if my short list is as good as I think it is. Maybe I am biased and only observed good/bad work for people on either list. Also people change over time and take on new respo…

I am 100% certain that I am a member of the “naughty” list for some ex-colleagues and the “nice” list for other ex-colleagues. ;)
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