Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#361

Post by ineedasername » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

Barrera wrote: post #292

jolux wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say the wheels were flying off the economy in 2020?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2019_events_in_the_U... 2. https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/12/31/2019s-yie...

There appears to be technical issues that caused #1, something about timing rather than a cause that points to more serious problems. If so, the analysis in #2 is based on a data point disconnected from those of the trend.

Also the trend in #2 consists if 3 data points. It might be an accurate interpretation, but curves before the '73, '80, '81 recessions didn't follow this pattern. We'd need an explanation for why that's the case, and what changed in the '90s. Without that we're just drawing a bullseye around 3 dots coincidentally close together.

Was there other evidence for a recession? I know that some people were saying we were "due" for one based simply on average timing, but that's no very compelling either if GDP growth had been relatively steady.

Meanwhile, this article [0] indicates that right before the pandemic got huge we weren't checking the boxes on a variety of things that would be warning signs.

[0] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/03/06/her...

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#362

Post by briandear » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #339

jfjfkfmf wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would any company actually want to do this when they could just get non union labor in any of the thousands of right-to-work cities?

It's expensive to do business in those sorts of places. Alabama lost a Toyota plant to Ontario because literacy is so poor they would need to translate their documentation into Ikea-like pictograms.

That’s false. That decision had to do with currency values not literacy.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/suv-shuffle-mdx-production-m...

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#363

Post by educaysean » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #349

educaysean wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it bad? It's bad because it takes away freedom and agency from the working class, and workers rights is something I care about.

I'm not sure I get that, really. If you care about the material conditions of workers today, as they are experiencing them, the greatest threat to their agency by far is the asset owners they work for. There is probably an abstract, theoretical future where worker freedom is significantly curtailed by union power, I guess. But being more concerned with that hypothetical than with the genuine exploitation that is the…

I assume you're writing this from the viewpoint that I consider unions to be ineffective or evil, even. I am not.

I share your concerns regarding the owners whose powers often go unchecked in corporate America, and I completely agree that we're reaching dangerous levels.

But I'm not speaking in hypotheticals. No, the anecdote I brought up is, in fact, the least hypothetical thing in this conversation thread. My wife examined the union pamphlet that was handed to her, decided that the union did not represent her needs adequately, but was told she'd still need to pay the union dues. This is not enabling her agency whatsoever, and actively made her conditions worse by heaping on unwanted taxes that she felt was also priced disproportionately. Yet she had no voice in this matter.

Organize a union, yes - you have my full support. Represent whichever needs your union deems to be important, yup - I'm behind it. Fight the greedy owners, great. But don't extort money from those who made the active decision to not be a part of the union. This is an active intrusion of her agency, and a real event that I brought up because I didn't think think it was fair. The fact that workers are already being exploited by greedy corporations does not excuse bad union behaviors, period.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#364

Post by endisneigh » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

nessguy wrote: post #326

Barrera wrote: post #250

Freakonomics ran a recent episode on unions [1]. A pair of interesting stats were presented near the start: the approval rating for unions stands at 70% in the US (even higher among the young) at the same time that union membership stands at 10%. Both numbers are at multi-decade extremes. I don't think it's any coincidence that this success at Amazon comes right now. After the GFC all regulatory efforts turned to kee…

I like the idea of unions more than the reality. My first job was earning minimum wage working full-time at Safeway. After working there for about 9 months I quit because I didn't want to pay union dues to join the union. I was already only making minimum wage, it wasn't like the union was improving my salary. The required hour long lunch breaks might have been thanks to the union, but I hated having to take hour lon…

I see what you're saying but an "optional" union is pretty much bound to collapse inevitably.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#365

Post by beastman82 » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

smachiz wrote: post #198

ejb999 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>There's literally no way that you could have any possible way of bargaining your way around that as a single person. Actually you do, by walking across the street and getting a big fat raise to join a different company. That is one of many reasons engineers by and large don't feel a need to have someone else bargain for them - they negotiate with their feet.

If you clicked the Parent's link, you would have seen it was discussing the anti-poaching collusion / wage fixing that was going on. You couldn't walk across the street, because the company across the street agreed not to hire employees from the other company across the street. The free market isn't always free.

If you clicked the parents link you would have seen that it involved 2 companies, not the market itself

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#366

Post by skrtskrt » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #342

jdavis703 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the trend continues as you posit, I would expect private-sector unions to become a non-partisan alignment, similar to how social security is sacrosanct in US politics. Most unions form at places that are genuinely terrible workspaces where workers have legitimate reasons to hate the boss. As unions become mainstream at places like Starbucks I would expect folks agitating for worker power to less radical.

It might, but they would have to be big enough to break the "conservative" alignment of resource extractors, religious fanatics and rich people. It's definitely possible in 10-20 years.

Outside of Bernie and a few others, the days of Democrats having many nationally significant politicians that are truly pro-union are pretty much gone.

I don't think most people, including those that vote Democratic, have much of an illusion of the Democratic party as a friend of labor anymore.

Sure the Republicans actively try to dismantle all worker protections, but the Democrats mostly stand by and say well what can ya do?

The role of Democrats right now is to pretend to fight for normal people just enough to get the votes, then completely fail to do anything so the rich party donors still get what they want.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#367

Post by gruez » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:35 PM UTC

hapless wrote: post #291

gruez wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do most people in New York want their police force to have a budget larger than military of a mid sized country? Probably not? Pareto distribution strikes again! Apparently new york city has a GDP that ranks 15 in the world, above mexico[1][2] and ranks 59 in the world in terms of population[3], so the fact that new york exceeds "a mid sized country" (median?) in some statistic isn't surprising. If you want to make…

Unlike Mexico, New York City does not need to maintain its borders or enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law -- because New York City is not a Westphalian state, it is just a municipal government covering a few hundred square miles! It is completely bonkers to have this many uniformed officers and this much money poured into security forces, and so little positive result of any of it. The reason tha…

> Unlike Mexico, New York City does not need to maintain its borders or enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law -- because New York City is not a Westphalian state, it is just a municipal government covering a few hundred square miles!

you'd think that's the case, but it seems fairly normal for countries to have more police officers than soldiers[1][2]. Just looking at g8 countries:

     soldiers police officers
    Canada  67,400  67,425
    France  203,250  282,612
    Germany  183,500  279,200
    Italy  165,500  276,750
    Japan  247,150  296,700
    United Kingdom  148,500  148,893
    United States  1,388,100  686,665

Which makes sense, considering that it's the police officers that are in charge of "enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law". In the 21st century, border incursions are rare compared to criminal activity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

[2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/military-...

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#368

Post by nopenopenopeno » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #329

eigenvalue wrote: post #290

When this has happened at individual Walmart stores in the past, the company would immediately shut down the store and everyone would lose their jobs. A couple years later they would build a new store within 20 or so miles of the old store, free of the union. This was obviously financially painful for Walmart, but it served as such a strong signal to employees to not even try to unionize that it must have paid for it…

The capital cost to build a modern Amazon Fulfillment Center is absolutely staggering. I used to be part of a team that helped launch them. Go watch one of those "inside the Amazon warehouse" videos on YouTube. The box/tote sorting machines are millions of dollars each, and there are probably 3 big ones and maybe 2 or 3 more small ones. The ubiquitous conveyor belts are cheap individually, but there are miles of them…

Oh yes they do. See: Rust Belt.

I think you’re drastically underestimating the influence of unionization.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#369

Post by cwmoreiras » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

throwaway6734 wrote: post #346

jdavis703 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the trend continues as you posit, I would expect private-sector unions to become a non-partisan alignment, similar to how social security is sacrosanct in US politics. Most unions form at places that are genuinely terrible workspaces where workers have legitimate reasons to hate the boss. As unions become mainstream at places like Starbucks I would expect folks agitating for worker power to less radical.

I don't think that will be the case for social security for much longer. The trust is on the path to running dry over the next 10-15 years and benefits will need to be cut. Romney recently breached the idea of raising retirement age for current workers. Frankly I'm shocked by how few young workers realize how bad of a deal they're getting with the current system

The only way social security will "run dry" is if Congress lets it die.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#370

Post by giraffe_lady » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

educaysean wrote: post #363

giraffe_lady wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I get that, really. If you care about the material conditions of workers today, as they are experiencing them, the greatest threat to their agency by far is the asset owners they work for. There is probably an abstract, theoretical future where worker freedom is significantly curtailed by union power, I guess. But being more concerned with that hypothetical than with the genuine exploitation that is the…

I assume you're writing this from the viewpoint that I consider unions to be ineffective or evil, even. I am not. I share your concerns regarding the owners whose powers often go unchecked in corporate America, and I completely agree that we're reaching dangerous levels. But I'm not speaking in hypotheticals. No, the anecdote I brought up is, in fact, the least hypothetical thing in this conversation thread. My wife…

No, I wasn't quite assuming you are anti-union, but that is one of the most common bits of anti-union propaganda. There's a true issue there but I don't think it's proportional to the amount of time this specific problem gets in these discussions.

I think it comes down to what you expect from people who are being treated poorly. Do you only accept "pure" moral acts as valid? Is small unfairness to a few justified to prevent large unfairness to many? It seems like we have different answers to these questions, but I don't think either can be dismissed as inherently against worker freedom or agency.

I care very very much about practical power for people who need it right now. I care a lot less about abstract freedoms that material conditions prevent people from being able to act on.