Live data from Hacker News

Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

newyorker.com

361–370 of 411 posts

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah. If you want to read one article to better understand what's going on, this is it. It's hard for people from the west to see things from a different point of view than modern liberalism. This article shows where and why. It also shows how intolerant the liberal mindset is to other global viewpoints.

It sure sounds edgy to say things like " how intolerant the liberal mindset is to other global viewpoints " and " it's hard for people from the west to see things from a different point of view than modern liberalism ". And certainly, people should seek to understand different perspectives that clash with their own assumptions. But reading that article, its main foreign assumption is that the desires of the individua…

>But reading that article, its main foreign assumption is that the desires of the individual Ukrainians for freedom is irrelevant. Not temporarily ignored out of pragmatism. Not disappointingly accepted due to force majeure. But rather rendered irrelevant by the desire of Russia to rule over them as subjects.

That's not what Mearsheimer said in the article:

>One also hears the claim that Ukraine has the right to determine whom it wants to ally with and the Russians have no right to prevent Kiev from joining the West. This is a dangerous way for Ukraine to think about its foreign policy choices. The sad truth is that might often makes right when great-power politics are at play. Abstract rights such as self-determination are largely meaningless when powerful states get into brawls with weaker states. Did Cuba have the right to form a military alliance with the Soviet Union during the Cold War? The United States certainly did not think so, and the Russians think the same way about Ukraine joining the West. It is in Ukraine’s interest to understand these facts of life and tread carefully when dealing with its more powerful neighbor.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#362
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure sounds edgy to say things like " how intolerant the liberal mindset is to other global viewpoints " and " it's hard for people from the west to see things from a different point of view than modern liberalism ". And certainly, people should seek to understand different perspectives that clash with their own assumptions. But reading that article, its main foreign assumption is that the desires of the individua…

>But reading that article, its main foreign assumption is that the desires of the individual Ukrainians for freedom is irrelevant. Not temporarily ignored out of pragmatism. Not disappointingly accepted due to force majeure. But rather rendered irrelevant by the desire of Russia to rule over them as subjects. That's not what Mearsheimer said in the article: >One also hears the claim that Ukraine has the right to dete…

How does that passage disagree with what I said? By my reading, he acknowledges it only to write it off.

The problem isn't the "realist" analysis itself. It's that such analysis is being held up as a one-sided normative description to affect the actions of the larger might-makes-might of US/NATO. Applying the same standard to both - either we judge the moral merits of Ukrainian self-determination vs Russian conquering or EU/NATO is right to expand simply because they have the might to.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we do! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs...

It's deeply dishonest to claim that a handful of deeply tragic mistakes are in any way morally equivalent to the systematic and relentless targeting of civilians that the Russians are engaged in. The U.S. military has committed war crimes. They have all been prosecuted by the U.S. government. From Abu Ghraib to Clint Lorance to the Marine Snipers to Eddie Gallagher. There is no moral equivalence. https://twitter.com/…

Sorry dawg, but I accidentally bombed your hospital and your wedding party! We cool though, right?

Napalming the Vietnamese... rice farmers on the other side of the world who couldn't hurt us if they tried... and spending so much money to do it that we had to end Bretton Woods... a "deeply tragic mistake."

Destroying Iraq, over imaginary WMDs and Bin Laden (playing xbox in Pakistan at the time)... shelling the cities with so much depleted uranium that the babies are coming out deformed... oopsie!

And I'm the one being "deeply dishonest"? Ha!

Now that we've gotten the obligatory moral scolding out of the way, who really cares what John Mearsheimer or George Kennan have to say when we have twitter?

I go to the website... "Thanks to the Global Shapers Community...," another offshoot of the World Economic Forum. The Spice must flow, I guess.

"Built by Stanford Ukranians...," foreign silver-spoons agitating for Americans to die for mommy and daddy's regime. It's an understandable move--Iranian and Iraqi expats made the same one years ago--but no thank you.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a ludicrous claim when there was a Soviet-aligned country 90 miles south of Florida for most of the cold war that the US never invaded.

Does the failed Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba by the US not count?

That was an invasion by Cubans that was covertly supported by the US, not a US invasion.

It was only a US invasion in the sense that the US entered World War II in 1939 and in the sense that the US is currently at war with Russia.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we do! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs...

"We"? I don't remember becoming American anytime recently.

georgia_peach, American, replying to torstenvl, "U.S. Marine Officer."

We.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#366

I read Mearsheimer's "Tragedy of Great Power Politics", and I think it's one of the most important books ever written. It completely changed the way I think about what's going on in the world. That being said, I think on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, Mearsheimer is not consistent with his own theory (defensive realism). I completely understand why Putin is doing what he's doing, his actions are very well explained…

Defensive realism? “My theory, which I label “offensive realism,” is essentially realist in nature; it falls thus in the tradition of realist thinkers such as E. H. Carr, Hans Morgenthau, and Kenneth Waltz.”: John J. Mearsheimer. The Tragedy of Great Power Politics. >>That being said, I think on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, Mearsheimer is not consistent with his own theory (defensive realism). I completely unders…

Good point, it's offensive realism, not defensive realism.

Here's how this war fits into Mearsheimer's framework: great powers have a certain amount of power. There are 3 great powers today, the US, China and Russia. The power of a nation depends on its population and GDP, and lots of other things as well. Russia's population is going down, its GDP is just a fraction of China's or America's. So, their great power standing is on the decline.

A conquest of Ukraine, if speedy and decisive, would convince all the other former Soviet Republics to submit to Russia voluntarily, maybe with the exception of the Baltic republics which are part of NATO.

If Putin reincorporates the Russian Empire, the population doubles overnight, a feat not achieved even by Bismark. The GDP also increases, although not that much. Still, under such a scenario, Russia under Putin would achieve a huge leap in great power standing. It would probably still not be number 1, but it could be number 2, because, despite having much lower population and GDP than China, it would have fresh war experience.

Given that this fits so well in Mearsheimer's framework, it's obvious that all of Putin's rhetoric about the NATO transgressions is just that, rhetoric.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's deeply dishonest to claim that a handful of deeply tragic mistakes are in any way morally equivalent to the systematic and relentless targeting of civilians that the Russians are engaged in. The U.S. military has committed war crimes. They have all been prosecuted by the U.S. government. From Abu Ghraib to Clint Lorance to the Marine Snipers to Eddie Gallagher. There is no moral equivalence. https://twitter.com/…

Sorry dawg, but I accidentally bombed your hospital and your wedding party! We cool though, right? Napalming the Vietnamese... rice farmers on the other side of the world who couldn't hurt us if they tried... and spending so much money to do it that we had to end Bretton Woods... a " deeply tragic mistake ." Destroying Iraq, over imaginary WMDs and Bin Laden (playing xbox in Pakistan at the time)... shelling the citi…

And again...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley#Murder_trial

Feel free to criticize Nixon for getting involved but the U.S. prosecutes soldiers who commit war crimes. Even in Vietnam. And when people try to cover it up, U.S. service members have the moral courage to push back.

Russia intentionally encourages, even orders, soldiers to commit war crimes. There are no prosecutions for it. There is no comparison.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry dawg, but I accidentally bombed your hospital and your wedding party! We cool though, right? Napalming the Vietnamese... rice farmers on the other side of the world who couldn't hurt us if they tried... and spending so much money to do it that we had to end Bretton Woods... a " deeply tragic mistake ." Destroying Iraq, over imaginary WMDs and Bin Laden (playing xbox in Pakistan at the time)... shelling the citi…

And again... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley#Murder_trial Feel free to criticize Nixon for getting involved but the U.S. prosecutes soldiers who commit war crimes. Even in Vietnam. And when people try to cover it up, U.S. service members have the moral courage to push back. Russia intentionally encourages, even orders, soldiers to commit war crimes. There are no prosecutions for it. There is no compari…

This is just phariseeism. "See, we punished the guy who did the illegal killings!" -- while whistling right past all of the legal ones.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a geostrategic logic behind where Russia wants their borders positioned. Your statement applies more to other countries in Europe, IMO.

> There's a geostrategic logic behind where Russia wants their borders positioned. Yes, imperialism usually has a geostrategic logic. What it doesn't have is respect for the right of self-determination. > Your statement applies more to other countries in Europe Except you’ve literally just admitted that it is exactly the driving force for Russia.

> What it doesn't have is respect for the right of self-determination.

Did the US have any respect for self-determination in the 2014 putsch it backed in Ukraine?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also playing right into NATO's hands in a way. But, after reading the authors I mentioned closely, I now realize that this is a war for control/negative-control over natural resources (grain, oil, gas, fertilizers, etc.). Also, this is about geostrategic security (anchoring at the Carpathian mountains and Bessarabia Gap). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CNeDtZmpjU And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If…

This — only have listened to the Hitchens so far — was fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing this. I wonder what he would say about Germany deciding to militarize overnight. No wonder Macron was telling Putin Russia is “European”. Wheels within wheels.

Indeed. NATO/EU expansion is essentially a slow-moving replay of Brest-Litovsk and Barbarossa from the Russian point-of-view. I'm an American but I totally understand why Russia just did what it did. Never forget that Lenin was sent to Russia BY GERMANY for the express purpose of destabilizing Russia during WW1. This is the type of destabilizing regime-change that Russia fears. Their fears are not unfounded if you pay close attention to what the US has done in Ukraine, which is something our media doesn't even cover.

This is just the tip of the iceberg:

* https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo...

* https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukra...

* https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-r...

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg

I seek out the motive behind actions; otherwise, history is the most boring and unintelligible sequence of events known to man.

I recommend you look into these authors/commentators/analysts: * John Mearsheimer * Noam Chomsky * Vladimir Pozner * Jeffrey Sachs * Zbigniew Brezinski * George Friedman * Peter Zeihan * Peter Hitchens * Gonzalo Lira * Tim Marshall * Robert D Kaplan * Jack F. Matlock Jr * George Kennan * Stephen Cohen * Henry Kissinger

Post reply on HN