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Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

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Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#361
post #7

To Indian commenters on HN, how much of that is true? Do you feel threatened when a coworker asks about where you are from? It's something I do ask from time to time (not during interviews obviously, but during lunch for example) out of pure curiosity. Should I stop? I guess that I should explicitly add that I am not from India. Cross-cultural communications can be a bit difficult at times and I'd rather not make blu…

I was in US before but not any more. I would say there are subconscious traits in people which are influenced by Caste more than anything else which I started picking up when I started working. I grew up in a very caste agnostic and liberal city in India. There are actually numerous divisions in society which may exist more in the rural areas than urban but it is just the way people cluster. I want to put forward a few points without any specific order

- Have found regional identities to be stronger than others. Some regional identities based on languages and ability to form together as a group are much stronger than others (Punjabis, Gujaratis and last decade or 2, Telugu people)

- Some communities in India like business communities of Jains and Marwaris are quite closed like Jewish folks in some instances. They do not allow other folks inside their sanctum

- Fights are mostly a symptom of other issues - limited resources, significant population and a lot of it are kept alive by the democratic nature of the country where politicians exploit the divisions

- Affirmative action has made it much easier for people for downtrodden communities (SC, ST) to get Govt jobs, promotions etc. However a lot of these benefits are only accruing to second and third generation of privileged people from their caste and festers resentment in middle class whether urban or otherwise including myself who is classified as OBC (Other backward classes) which is one of the most illogical way of grouping people as any. A lot of OBCs have a lot of land and wield a lot of power

I just want to say that the issue is very complicated and also has a lot of colonial influence still hanging around it to this day. Having said that, things are so much better than what they were 3-4 decades ago based upon my conversation with family elders.

PS. - Anecdata. I was rejected by many SC/ST i.e. women from backward castes in arranged marriage website because they did not want to lose the "privilege" affirmative action will bring to their children. Ultimately I had to find someone from my own caste. My attempt to be open minded and different fell flat on its face.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can I hide me caste without changing my last name?

I know I might be oversimplifying this. But you can legally change your last name. But you cannot change your race. Unless, your phenotype is somewhat ambiguous and can pass as a person of the majority racial group. But that is rare. By conflating casteism with racism, you're diluting the meaning of what racism is and systemic effects it has had on minorities in the United States. By the way I'm a person of Indian an…

If your argument is that one is worse than the other because you can hide then you didn't take into account things like plastic surgery or bleaching one's skin or straightening one's hair. If you're going to tell someone to just abandon their family name then why not tell them to get plastic surgery or anything else to modify their appearance?

It's a bad argument.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#363

> A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts I'm a non-dalit Indian working in silicon valley. I know that caste based discrimination is still prevalent in India and not surprised that it continues in here in silicon valley as well amongst Indian community but I'm surprised to read this part in the article. I have nev…

Actually, Sai Deepak mentions that 15% of those classified as SC/STs also wear the sacred thread. Of course, we know 'Shudras' have run empires in India and have held high status before the age of colonialism.

Unsuprising that the Western press and academia has the nuance of a brick, perhaps because their own history is so grotesquely checkered.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#365

> A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts I'm a non-dalit Indian working in silicon valley. I know that caste based discrimination is still prevalent in India and not surprised that it continues in here in silicon valley as well amongst Indian community but I'm surprised to read this part in the article. I have nev…

Actually, Sai Deepak mentions that 15% of those classified as SC/STs also wear the sacred thread. Of course, we know 'Shudras' have run empires in India and have held high status before the age of colonialism. Unsuprising that the Western press and academia has the nuance of a brick, perhaps because their own history is so grotesquely checkered.

This is extremely misleading and a copout to suggest that even SC/STs wear the thread. Reality is that 99.99% of them don't.

I wouldn't trust Sai Deepak with anything, he's a nut job who for some reason sounds eloquent to the upper class Hindus.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#366
I would like non-Indian people to know that the caste problem is not uniformly distributed throughout India.

In cities like Kolkata, Chennai, and Mumbai- the problem is non-existent.

The problem is much more rampant in Northern parts of India. This region is the American south without the good parts.

This region ranks the highest in the country for foeticide of girl children. Because the society is deeply patriarchal.

Honor killing, i.e. killing your own daughter or sibling for marrying outside caste is rampant.

This region also votes in high numbers for divisive-policy holders.

In other regions of India, the problem is much less visible.

In Bengal, where I come from, I have never seen casteism. Inter-caste marriage is rampant. Yes, castiest assholes exist everywhere. But many don't care- or care only when it comes to marriage.

I belong neither to a so-called "upper caste" nor I am a Dalit.

Caste-based discrimination is minimal in here.

Ambedkar is a venerable intellectual even if you completely disregard his caste identity and fights for Dalits. As a non-Dalit, I have deep respects for him- just as an intellectual, a nerd.

What did away with caste mostly is colonialism. Colonialism attacks your way of living, and casteism is an Indian way of living. The places where British rule was consolidated, you will see much less casteism in those places.

Casteism is not a new problem. Buddha faught against it two millenias ago.

Do NOT listen to Hindus who say that casteism has nothing to do with Hinduism. Hindu scriptures such as Manu Smriti, Parashara Smriti, Yajnabalka Smriti are ripe with casteism.

Even in the Mahabharata, it is said that capital punishment or holding is not apt for a Brahmin criminal. The most that can be done is banishing them.

In Magadha Empire of the Mauryas, Kautilya suggests death penalty for Dalits who go to bed with a Brahmin woman. The opposite carries little punishment.

And many foreigners are wondering whether asking about one's village is risky. I will say that it depends.

In colonial strongholds, the villages are less segregated. And history takes place.

Bengal was a stronghold of Buddhism during the Pala Empire. The staunch Brahmin Sen kingdom brought Brahmins from other Indian places and sent them to each village to "save" the masses.

So, in a Bengali village, there are Brahmins as well as other people.

And also local identity. Suppose, there is a village called "Mohanpur" or "Krishnagunj"- nobcaste identity here. But if there's a village called "Mahargaon", you know that it consists of Mahar sub-caste. That gives the identity away.

It is also not true as many claim that most Brahmins do not wear threads. Only modern-minded, reformist kind of people give up thread. I have at least three Brahmin friends who gave up the thread. One of them is a Communist. So you get the picture!

There is also a modern form of casteism due to the affirmative action policy.

An SC person, no matter how rich or privileged, gets lucrative benefits. That draws hatred towards them. For example, to get in a Chemistry major course of a very prestigious college, an Unreserved caste person needed 94 in chemistry. But an SC person needed only 59 (out of hundred). That college is very expensive though. Frustrated mediocres of Unreserved caste hate on the reserved people for this. (The very good ones get in despite the reservation).

In government employment or higher education, an SC person gets five fold advantage-

1. Age relaxation for five or more years. Say, 25 is the ceiling for others, but 30 for SC.

2. Cutoff marks in qualifying test is much lower.

3. Eligibility is marked off at 60% in college/HS for others, but 45% for SC.

4. Number of attempts is uncapped or much higher.

5. Even if you get through reservation, your reservation again applies when promotion is sought.

All this, no matter how rich you are.

This irks people. I had no such issues since I never suffered from reservation personally. But I know people who have. E.g.- a friend could not qualify for medical school despite getting 500+/720 in the entrance, but a much richer SC person got in a very good one at 400+/720. The former would need 650+/720 to get in the same school.

This fuels modern casteism that I see in Bengal.

I absolutely abhor the idea of caste. And just like the person in the article, I am no longer a Hindu. I despise all systems where you are marked off at your birth. Became an athiest at 16, and gave up Hinduism at 19.

Many households do not care about casteism now.

Many are hopeful, that with younger generations, casteism will automatically die out. But I am not so hopeful. I regularly meet young casteists.

You should know that the Hindu Nationalistic BJP/RSS cabal has been trying very hard to get Dalit votes by calling them Hindus and forming a pseudo-unity against Muslims.

Mass converting out of Hinduism to Christianity, Buddhism, and even Islam is common to irk the Brahmin overlords of society.

You should also know that casteism is common in SC people and OBC (Other Backward Classes- a government term to classify people who are higher than Dalits in Hindu hierarchy but "lower" than upper castes). They do not like people marrying outside of their caste.

You should also know that casteism is designed rather than natural.

And these people in the SV are lucky. Their counterparts in North Indian villages suffer a much worse fate.

I will monitor this thread, and ask me questions if you want.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that genuine conflicts of interest need to be addressed. It seems absurd to declare a-priori that “no Indian shall be the unsupervised leader of a Pakistani (nor vice-versa) because that’s a conflict of interest”.

I didn't say that. What you've said here is a straw man

Huh? You said it is a conflict of interest when people from frictioned backgrounds are allowed to manage and interview people from the other side. It's right here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523177

What is the strawman?

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#368
post #91

The caste system is so deeply entrenched in the culture of those abused by it that even centuries after leaving india they cant leave it behind. Romania has a considerable group of such people. The Gipsy (also know as Romani) are an Indian people that are thought to have been part of a caste and fled India hundreds of years ago. To this day they cant lift themselves up, and frankly the government of Romania is not do…

Gypsy — India connect, would be interesting TIL for me. Is there a reputed citation on this?

India also has a non trivial number of nomadic groups/tribes. In my part or India they are called “Lambani”. Their lifestyle closely resembles that of Gypsy, however I’m not knowledgeable enough to comment if they are related.

Here’s an article from DDG search:

https://indiantribalheritage.org/wp-content/uploads/Lambanis...

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#369
post #234
post #8

Past related threads. I think there have been others. How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26435117 - March 2021 (195 comments) Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest tech companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698 - Oct 2020 (322 comments) How India's ancient caste system is ruining lives in Silicon Valley - https://n…

Cisco is a hell hole that attracts a particular type of employee without talent who indulge in this type of discrimination blatantly. Narrow-minded Indians (I'm speaking as an Indian myself) who bring their Indian attitudes abroad. These types of Indians put others to shame. This is another side effect of doling out H1Bs and L1s without consideration for assimilation. I'm not sure if this is endemic to Indians though…

Telecommunications industry seems to be particularly toxic, I hear there are in Santa Clara, and in Bangalore too, buildings full of 'Automation engineers'. There are like thousands and thousands of people whose whole job is to plugin in some values in a Jenkins job and pull out values, and mail it to the next person up the chain. And yes most of these people are on H1B, and many times are even given GC's in EB1 by cooking up legal documentation.

In a set up where there is such low/non-existent value going around and nothing much to show for, I'd expect toxic politics for every little thing.

There are quite a few places like this in this industry, and it can be very hard to achieve anything of value both personally and professionally at such places. And its all about identity politics, and cartel behaviour at the end.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#370
post #7

To Indian commenters on HN, how much of that is true? Do you feel threatened when a coworker asks about where you are from? It's something I do ask from time to time (not during interviews obviously, but during lunch for example) out of pure curiosity. Should I stop? I guess that I should explicitly add that I am not from India. Cross-cultural communications can be a bit difficult at times and I'd rather not make blu…

No not really.

In some cases the village might indicate one's caste. In most cases, it does not.

If two Indians are from the same region, they know the demographic of that region pretty well.

So, that might be revelatory. But this is only true for some regions in India where villages are segregated.

Most villages in India are not segregated, i.e. Brahmins, upper-caste (they call themselves that), general castes, Dalits live together. But the neighborhoods are often segregated. But they do go to the same schools.

But as you are not an Indian, whether the one being asked is a Brahmin or a Dalit, will not tell you his village name- simply because you will not know it.

And in megacities, people from every caste are there.

As someone from outside India, you can safely ask where someone is from. They will probably tell you- "Mumbai" or "a small village near Delhi". No risk there.

Never ever ask people their caste.

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