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Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

calcalistech.com

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Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#361
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, Egypt being complicit in depriving Gaza of resources (to a MUCH lesser extent than Israel, to be fair) does in no way prove that Hamas is the problem, Yeah it does... Oh, how much it does...

Ok, then why do you think the people of Gaza have been consistently voting for Hamas in free elections?

Duuude there is no election in gaza since hamas (armed) takeover: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine#In_the_...

you are protecting a terrorist group. they harm palestine future the most. stooop.

You are consistently wrong on every fact of this conflict.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#362
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Those guys are bad too" is not a rebuttal. Yes, they are. So?

So, why don't they get called 'apartheid'?

Well, largely because the Arab countries are not. They do bad things, yes. They did a one-time expulsion of Jews, which is now no longer on going. They have highly discriminatory immigration policies. They have abusive "guest worker" programs that end up as de-facto slavery for many. These are pretty bad things (though discriminatory immigration policies is pretty uniform, the world over), but these things are not generally what people mean by apartheid.

It's not fully fair to describe Israel as apartheid either. Its actual citizens largely have the same rights on paper no matter ethnicity or religion (though the religious marriage laws are an oddity, and the inability to intermarry does make it comparable to those prohibiting interracial marriage in South Africa).

But it is actually somewhat fair to compare Israel to apartheid South Africa. They have an active, ongoing separation of populations into segregated areas and even nominally independent states, that have no effective autonomy due to the overwhelming power and actual physical control of Israel. The Gaza strip and the West Bank are nearly direct equivalents of South Africa's bantustans. If you accept that Israel does have real sovereignty over all the territory it occupies, the differences in how it treats different people really don't seem just.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, you're doing violence to history. The Warsaw Ghetto did not have elections to vote in a terrorist group. It was not offered its own nation-state. It didn't receive billions in foreign aid to build bombs. It did not have a charter, nor was the annihilation of German civilians in its charter. Moreover, it existed as a way to round people up in order to exterminate them. That…

> The Warsaw Ghetto did not have elections to vote in a terrorist group. HAMAS was not a "terrorist group" when they were duly elected in the Gaza Strip. > It was not offered its own nation-state. Neither Gaza nor the West Bank has been offered it's own nation-state.

Hamas was declared a terrorist organization by the EU in 2001, five years before they won elections in Gaza.

Palestine declared statehood in 1988 when Jordan renounced the West Bank. In 1993, the Oslo Accords would have granted statehood to Gaza and the West Bank. This was rejected by the PA leadership under Arafat because it would have foreclosed the possibility of a return to land within Israel proper, and they didn't have the political strength to make that palatable when most of their power rested on raising the street in anger. The fact remains that a free Palestinian state was offered to the PA, which would have included all of Gaza and most of the West Bank.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#364
post #348
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any claim to fair and equal treatment can be dismissed with "whataboutism". "Why I [female/transgender/black/etc.] receive half of what that straight white dude gets?" — "That's whataboutism."

Not really. That's a comparison. "Why do that woman receive half of what that straight white dude gets?" - "Why are you asking? Why aren't you asking about the black dude get only a quarter?" THAT is whataboutism. Implying you shouldn't make remarks (about a woman's wage, about Israel, ...) without also taking other cases (transgenders, blacks, China) into account is whataboutism: using a claim to fair and equal trea…

In this case, I think it is reasonable to demand that a white guy, a black guy, and a female all receive same wages. But the situation where a black guy is hired by a rich and powerful boss, so nobody dares questioning his wages for the fear of his boss, and so everyone should pretend to only discuss an isolated question (woman's wages), is untenable.

Selective application of a principle (or a law) to some, may be considered as a form of oppression, like in the US, when white guys caught with a small amount of marijuana get sent home, but black guys with the same amount get sent to prison; or in Russia, where the laws are extremely strict, but are rarely applied to rich or powerful or well-connected.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#365
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have any international sources on this? Sources on what? What did you disagree with? > I'm open to the idea that B'Tselem are unreliable You linked an article from organization B'Tselem claiming Israel is an Apartheid state. I dont like the "angle of their post" to use your words. > note they're essentially from a rival Israeli political outlook Yes, my that's my point. B'Tselem is a political organization,…

I can see I've given some offence and would like to reiterate that's not my intention. I'd continue asking questions as I remain fairly curious, but will pick another time and place. Thank you for responding, and again, apologies for any offence caused.

No offense taken, I was simply responding to you and clarified the conversation.

Whatever emotions you perceived me to have were in your head.

Possibly it was the emphasis on "proves", which was simply an emphasis with the goal of highlighting you need to prove Israel is an apartheid state if you claim as such.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine some group that duplicates Pegasus/NSO -- compromises it but sells it AS Pegasus/NSO to unsuspecting, less-savvy nation-states and effectively uses /IT/ to infiltrate/backdoor the intelligence/LEO ops of said customer state... Or is that what Pegasus/NSO basically already provide, as a feature?

> Or is that what Pegasus/NSO basically already provide, as a feature? considering shell are mainly used for deeply corrupt ends, this isn't a far stretch. similarly, things that seem like duopolies today might well be revealed to be monopolies in reality if actual ownership records became public. i imagine the false public perception of a market that has fair competition is very valuable as it maintains the illusion…

shell companies*

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#367
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, why don't they get called 'apartheid'?

Well, largely because the Arab countries are not. They do bad things, yes. They did a one-time expulsion of Jews, which is now no longer on going. They have highly discriminatory immigration policies. They have abusive "guest worker" programs that end up as de-facto slavery for many. These are pretty bad things (though discriminatory immigration policies is pretty uniform, the world over), but these things are not ge…

> They did a one-time expulsion of Jews, which is now no longer on going.

So that's what Israel should have done (one time expulsion of Arabs) to avoid being called Apartheid?

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#368
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, largely because the Arab countries are not. They do bad things, yes. They did a one-time expulsion of Jews, which is now no longer on going. They have highly discriminatory immigration policies. They have abusive "guest worker" programs that end up as de-facto slavery for many. These are pretty bad things (though discriminatory immigration policies is pretty uniform, the world over), but these things are not ge…

> They did a one-time expulsion of Jews, which is now no longer on going. So that's what Israel should have done (one time expulsion of Arabs) to avoid being called Apartheid?

That likely would have spared them comparison to Apartheid, yes, but would instead have been an ethnic cleansing.

The unfortunate matter is that the Arab states were not criticized harshly enough. And that is almost certainly due to a combination of antisemitism and realpolitik over their oil resources. And this relative lack of criticism continues to this day.

Nonetheless, it's still not a responsive defense to bad behavior to point out other bad behavior that is less criticized. By all means do what you can criticize these states and surface their bad behavior (and do so individually; they're not a monolith). But a thread talking about Israel isn't the place to do it. First of all, it's ineffective, second of all it's derailing to the thread.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#369
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They did a one-time expulsion of Jews, which is now no longer on going. So that's what Israel should have done (one time expulsion of Arabs) to avoid being called Apartheid?

That likely would have spared them comparison to Apartheid, yes, but would instead have been an ethnic cleansing. The unfortunate matter is that the Arab states were not criticized harshly enough. And that is almost certainly due to a combination of antisemitism and realpolitik over their oil resources. And this relative lack of criticism continues to this day. Nonetheless, it's still not a responsive defense to bad…

When rules are applied selectively and one nation is singled out for bulk of the vitriol, it's 100% valid to ask why someone else wasn't penalized for doing something much much worse. And you're right, most of Israel bashing is antisemitism.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#370
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah.. you are being dishonest right now. He clearly said in my [3] image it doesn't qualify as genocide since the economist said so. And the thread he endorse is so bizarre. Because the USA hurt Muslim before they need to keep silent now when other do it? Who would say that other than people who doesn't care.. if it isn't the best giveaway of all. So I gave you a clear proof that a person, a cofounder of a big left…

> He clearly said in my [3] image it doesn't qualify as genocide since the economist said so. So parroting the line of the Economist and US state department makes you a tankie? > Because the USA hurt Muslim before they need to keep silent now when other do it? The thread doesn't say they should keep silent, it says they should not apply sanctions (and obviously should not use military force) against China. > So I gav…

This comment is so bad faith... anyway, here is a full subreddit with Pro China, Anti Israel: https://old.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/.
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