More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#361

Post by vmception » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

There aren't colleges problem. Its coincidence that for the last 60 years people felt like they needed college, while colleges insist that people want to be there for obscure higher education for the sake of pursuing obscure higher education. Turns out this was true for hundreds of years before inclusion was even a concept, and will exist for the next hundreds of years as people find another option.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#362

Post by ljhsiung » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #234

xhkkffbf wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking of 20 years ago. Most state schools are easily $20k for in state students once you add in the room and board. Then they try to get $50k from the out-of-staters. Top flight state schools like Michigan, Cal Berkeley and Cornell start at $75k+ for out-of-staters. Of course financial aid does enter the picture for many students.

No, I am not thinking of twenty years ago, I accurately stated the cost of tuition today, which generally does not include renting a place to live, on-campus or otherwise, or a meal plan.

You didn't say "cost of tuition" in your original comment.

Further, I think it's disingenuous to only consider tuition. Cost of living in e.g. Berkeley is ridiculous, literally more than tuition. [1]

(I understand that living is not something Berkeley can fix, but it's very much their problem and a concern on students' minds, regardless of whose "fault" it is)

To only consider tuition is a cost-shifting marketing tactic that these schools use so you don't focus on the bottom line. Their goal is to get you to attend. Period.

Let's look at a less prestigious school-- UCSB tuition is about 12k, but total cost might be 24k (official estimate says 32k [2], but I have the random fees they have to not be applicable, e.g. "campus fees" or "books")

[1] https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost

[2] https://www.finaid.ucsb.edu/cost-of-attendance

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#363

Post by jorblumesea » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

The purpose of college is partly workforce training but also just general education. To see college as solely providing competitive dollar careers seems to misunderstand a large part of higher educational purpose. In theory at least, the liberal arts are something far more than just "can I work at FB".

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#364

Post by ativzzz » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

lthornberry wrote: post #285

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

Two biggest drivers are 1) massive declines in public support (for public universities, obviously) and 2) more administrators. Much of the growth in administration is driven by a significant rise in the costs to comply with federal regulation. Those regulations are not bad--it's the cost of complying with things like disability laws, Title IX, etc--but they require collecting and reporting significant amounts of data…

> Much of the growth in administration is driven by a significant rise in the costs to comply with federal regulation. Those regulations are not bad

Similar things happen in healthcare. My SO works in pharma and the amount of red tape they are required to navigate significantly increases the complexity of their administrative work and decreases the cost-efficiency of their business, partially passing on the costs to the price of drugs.

Again, like you said, the regulations are not bad (like regulating the types of communication they can have with doctors), but there is a price to pay to keep them.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#365

Post by zapataband1 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #328

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

I don't think the first two are problems colleges need to fix I think its more of a matter that we need to change our mindset about who should be attending college maybe some people would be better off going the trade school route.

Yeah we I read somewhere that in Germany 60% of students go into trades and they have seriously beefed up their programs. But yeah there is a stigma here in the US about trades, I think that's partly due to the social consequences of having insane wealth gaps and worshipping billionaires.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#366

Post by xienze » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

scarecrowbob wrote: post #190

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

The answer I get from my friends in the higher ed business are that the costs are covering decreased investment by state level government in colleges and universities. On one hand, I am not sure I agree. My son is going to the same state university I went to, and it's substantial more expensive, but they 've also built a ton of infrastructure that I find questionable. On the other hand, I don't really have data and w…

> The answer I get from my friends in the higher ed business are that the costs are covering decreased investment by state level government in colleges and universities.

I’d take that with a big grain of salt. They love to play up this angle but I just don’t see where funding has been cut at the same rate as tuition has increased.

I remember back when I was in school, one year the state government asked for some belt-tightening, to the tune of a 2% budget cut. Y’know, asking the school to go back to the budget they had like two years prior. The admin started going nuclear, “there’s no fat in our budget, these cuts will go straight to the bone!”, saying they’d have to cut the entire music department, 10% of all class sections, etc. Even got the students riled up enough to march on the capitol building. Even at the time, being significantly less jaded than I am now, I knew this was complete BS. Ever since I’ve been very wary of this narrative that colleges are driving up tuition because of state budget cuts. And it didn’t help shake my belief when I went back to campus a few years later and saw that they did a complete renovation of the library to include multiple gaming kiosks (!) and other such creature comforts.

Simply put, the schools can basically charge whatever they want and students will pay because any 18 year old with a pulse will get approved for unlimited money so long as it goes toward college. Put limits on student loans and you’ll see the situation change quickly.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#367

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #270

lotsofpulp wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's predatory about public loans. It distorts prices and results in a suboptimal allocation of society’s resources, and results in people complaining about having a “degree” and having to sling coffee cups as their career.

That's not what the word predatory generally means in the context of loans.

The predation is from voters today to taxpayers tomorrow.

Politician A says they want to help students by paying for their education, or at least some of it. This requires cash flow, which results in more taxes, or at the least, entries into the government’s debt figures. Either way it shows up on the balance sheet and can affect tax liabilities today.

Politician B says they want to help students, but they will instead have the government lend money to them, with zero under writing other than the “school” needing to be credentialed by some entity. The cash is spent, but an even bigger asset in the form of the debt is recorded, actually improving the balance sheet. Then you can whittle down whatever taxpayer subsidy is being given to the schools as is, and they can make up for it with tuition increases. Either way, government finances look good, and taxes can even be reduced.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#368

Post by cpascal » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

sylens wrote: post #51

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

Yes, it's quite clearly this. Millennials have been out there for nearly a decade yelling on social media about how ridiculous their student loans are. Kids on the precipice of college have started paying attention. Combine that with the restrictions for Covid, and you have a lot of kids who don't think that taking on tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars in debt is worth it for some Zoom classe…

I'm glad that there is much more awareness and consideration around cost.

When I was in high school and applying to colleges around 2011, the advice given to us was to not take cost too seriously. Many authority figures (like high school counselors) told my peers and I to, "follow your heart" or "go where you think you'll fit in best".

On top of that, student loans and interest rates where not explained to us very well. Very few of us understood that borrowing 160k-200k to go to an out-of-state/private school could very well mean you were signing up for a lifelong debt.

Looking back, its insane we could make such a life altering/hindering decision with so little oversight from the "adults".

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#369

Post by starwind » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

There shouldn't be a divide between skilled trades and bachelor's degrees. If I could add a creative writing minor to math degree, why was it impossible for me to add an aircraft maintenance certification through my school?

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#370

Post by samsolomon » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

FWIW, major college football programs are usually net positive for the school. In some cases they subsidize the other athletic programs.

https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Ranking-college-footba...

As far as where it goes, I think a ton goes into new buildings and amenities. I went to Auburn a decade ago and the campus looks completely different. Everything is new and shiny. I assume there are also a ton of administrators.