Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#361

Post by makapuf » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

djur wrote: post #329

takeda wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the story, but I'm wondering if IMEI wasn't introduced because of that. If SIM offered an identity in the network, why would phone need to have an unique number?

IMEI identifies the device, SIM identifies the subscriber. IMEI is used to block stolen phones, but it's also how phones are locked into specific carriers (which used to be a much bigger part of the business model, "$0 phones" and all).

Imei can be changed on some phones, and are not secure. The sim card needs to be logged to from the phone (usin PIN for uset-level login), contains non readable secrets and provides a completely separate execution environment with its own memory and cpu.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#362

Post by jon889 » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #253

tablespoon wrote: post #193

I don't like it. Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity is a lot easier to deal with in many ways than an ethereal emulation of said object. For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in, even if I can only communicate through little more than pointing and grunting. Another example: I got a new phone recently, but since all my stuff was still on my old phone, a…

>> For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in That is exactly what apple doesn't want you to do. They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users. If you are a local ISP, you better be part of the program if you wa…

I doubt this. Apple could charge an activation fee with a normal SIM already and yet they don’t. And any money gained from this would be insignificant to their other revenue streams. People don’t change SIMs that often

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#363

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

takeda wrote: post #306

deep-root wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were correct. They're saying your phone service identity (I am X number on Y network plan). Not your personal identity (pictures of your kids and passwords). Today if your phone fails, you can pop a sim in another phone and regain your phone service identity within minutes. No SIM, it could take days or even weeks.

Yes, I don't understand how this could be welcomed by anyone else than Apple. It gives flashback from time when Verizon had CDMA network and their devices did not have SIM.

What is the similarity to Verizon CDMA non SIM days if the phone is not locked to a carrier?

Connecting to ATT/Verizon/T-Mobile/Vodafone should be as easy as choosing a Wifi Network.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#364

Post by selectodude » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

seemaze wrote: post #303

timcederman wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the comments here at all. Advocating for a far less convenient physical solution over a digital solution - on HN? Has anyone here actually dealt with eSIMs vs regular SIMs? I've been using phones since SIM cards were the size of a credit card, and eSIMs are amazing in every way compared to physical SIMs. What am I missing?

I switched to using an eSIM with the iPhone 11. I was frequently traveling internationally and wanted the convenience of quickly purchasing a local SIM at my destination for easy cheap data, while retaining my US eSIM for important communication back home. It took [large US mobile operator] THREE days and multiple conversations to get the eSIM working. Multiple support techs either told me eSIM's did not exist or wer…

>I sure hope this has improved in the US since my experience.

Verizon has a link on their website that just spits out a QR code. Completely seamless.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#365

Post by Mikeb85 » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

xadhominemx wrote: post #281

lajamerr wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine a world where you just a bring a phone anywhere and it you open your network settings, go to your cellular data menu, and then automatically it detects the mobile network providers that support the towers it can see. Then you tap on the one you want, select the package you want, pay for it from that menu and then bam you are connected. All without having an existing Wi-Fi or Cellular data plan. There needs…

My Verizon plan has worked seamlessly across 30+ countries over what past 5 years. Your proposal sounds worse than the status quo.

Come to Canada, where our plans are shit and their international roaming rates are even more shit. The second I'm across a border the SIM card comes out...

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#366

Post by ceejayoz » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

Abroszka wrote: post #359

ceejayoz wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waterproofing is a spectrum ( https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207043 ), and seals fail over time. The fewer holes from the outside of the device to the inside, the fewer points of failure for the waterproofing. It was an openly stated reason for the move, and the first Apple phones to ditch the jack were the first to hit IP67 as a result.

They just said that to make people feel better. My Samsung A8 2018 with jack port is IP68/IP67.

Sure, and those standards are immersion "up to 30 minutes" sort of scenarios. Do it day in and day out and the seals will fail over time.

Fewer seals, fewer seal failures. (Salt water can be fun on the metal contacts, too.) I expect Apple to go induction-only charging at some point, for similar reasons.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#367

Post by klabb3 » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

pieterhg wrote: post #354

tablespoon wrote: post #193

I don't like it. Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity is a lot easier to deal with in many ways than an ethereal emulation of said object. For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in, even if I can only communicate through little more than pointing and grunting. Another example: I got a new phone recently, but since all my stuff was still on my old phone, a…

This hasn't been my experience. I use only eSIMs now on an iPhone 13. I buy eSIMs via Airalo's iOS app (not affiliated, not an ad but love it). It takes me 30 seconds from buying an eSIM in any country worldwide from their app, paying with Apple Pay, to having it active and working with data and voice line. I travel a lot and before it'd take 15 minutes to sometimes an hour of driving to a phone shop or finding it at…

What happens when you have more than the 2 active? Can they still be stored on the phone and reactivated in the future?

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#368

Post by dont__panic » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #276

kop316 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I helped my dad get a new iPhone at an Apple store without my mom (who is the primary holder of the phone account), my dad had to give all sorts of information to the employee and had to jump through a bunch of hoops that involved my mom being on the phone to give to the employee (things like giving my mom's SSN to the employee, sending a text to my mom's phone, and some other things I cannot remember now). Afte…

That’s down to your network. I was able to buy an e-sim over the internet in a few minutes from Vodafone UK, while not even being in the UK, and set it up by scanning a QR code that got emailed to me. Your problem isn’t the e-sim, it’s a shitty network.

Totally agreed. But networks in many (most?) countries have been shitty for a long time, and show no signs of improving. And they're so entrenched that we don't have much hope of replacing them even if something better suddenly showed up. This is the case in USA, Canada, Australia, the UK, and I'm sure a lot of other countries.

So no, I'm not going to applaud giving the networks even more power over my ability to switch phones and SIMs. Physical SIMs are nice because I can 99% cut the network out of my decision to switch phones -- all I have to do is pop the SIM into my new phone. I do not want to go through Verizon's, AT&T's, or any other archaic provider's process when dealing with my (or a family member's) phone upgrade.

It's a lot like the headphone jack removal: replace something that works great with a solution that works OK 90% of the time. But 10% of the time you're stuck in an edge case that isn't covered at all by the new, shinier solution.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#369

Post by mschuster91 » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

feupan wrote: post #228

mschuster91 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What can go wrong when everybody can program your SIM remotely? That's bollocks. An eSIM module is exactly the same chip as in a normal SIM card - right down to the electric specifications and communication protocols, so you can hook up a provisioned eSIM module to a phone or a SIM card to a device using an eSIM chip and it will Just Work (tm). The only difference is that the eSIM module is allowing the baseband ch…

I think that the risk is more about stealing the number more than reprogramming it. If I can move my eSIM to a new phone, so can an attacker.

> If I can move my eSIM to a new phone, so can an attacker.

No, they can't - there is (at least for modern SIM cards and eSIM modules, see [1]) no way short of decapping the chip to extract the secret keys once they are on the chip, and even de-capping is something that the chip industry has gotten pretty good on defending against.

An attacker would have to request a new eSIM profile (aka, new keys) from your provider to hijack your number, which is an entirely different threat model.

[1]: https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/sim-card-history-clone-wars/1...

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#370

Post by aurizon » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

hdhdhf wrote: post #82

aurizon wrote: post #16

Quoted post unavailable.

You mean if someone uses a million dollar zero day to hack an iPhone? You can still set a SIM pin on an iPhone eSIM as well, btw.

Android here. Not much of a sim hacker here - but I once suffered an over the air sim hack. Phone ceased to work, gmail accessed, PW changed and phone was changed to another number. Freedom advised there was no human engineering involved - they reverted the phone reverted to my control and I selected a 7 digit PIN and my file was locked so it needs me in person as well as that new PIN. gmail was recovered and a USB dongle was added at home to secure that. No problems since. Police and Federal(RCMP) police investigated. I could not figure why me? - apparently it was a hack aimed at the Australian ambassador to Canada, whose gmail ID was the same as mine with a 1 digit numeric suffix on his. Was this - Chinese?? They got nothing from me or him as he had a secure embassy hardware secured and encrypted message system he used for all embassy business. Gmail was just for online shopping, friends etc. He has since retired and I often get, in error, emails intended for him, which I dutifully forward and erase and we occasionally chat.