Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#361

Post by ufo » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #356

ufo wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The studies that got the vaccines approved in the first place had to show that they were effecitive for all adults. I'm sure that with some digging it should be possible to find the data split by age group. More recently, we've also gotten data for many vaccines showing that they're also effective for children and adolescents. Lastly, another important group is the elderly. Some studies suggest that they respond more…

>More recently, we've also gotten data for many vaccines showing that they're also effective for children and adolescents. This is my principal area of concern. If I recall correctly, the studies that were submitted to FDA for approval for young children did not show improvement in hospitalizations or deaths, in fact there was not a single death in any of the groups, rather they relied on showing the jabs successfull…

> did not show improvement in hospitalizations or deaths

Well, it's not surprising that there would be fewer deaths in children. We'd need a much larger study and I expect that this data will become available now that the vaccines are started to be more widely distributed.

> rather they relied on showing the jabs successfully produced antibodies (a much lower standard)

IIRC the study also found that the vaccine was effective at preventing infections.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#362

Post by q1w2 » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

docflabby wrote: post #169

If we can't convince medical workers to recieve a vaccine from their peers we are doing something wrong.

If the vaccine were still as effective as it was a year ago, I'd agree with you, but it's likely that the current vaccine will have a muted effect on omicron variant, so I'm not as comfortable mandating a vaccine for a now-dead variant.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#363

Post by q1w2 » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 10:52 PM UTC

konfusinomicon wrote: post #279

treeman79 wrote: post #102

What are the odds a healthcare worker hasn’t been repeatedly exposed to Covid by this point?

makes me wonder if repeated exposure that doesn't result in the virus replicating enough to take hold in the body gives you any kind of immunity, or if that is even a possibility. like how many viral bodies does it take, just 1?

It absolutely does. An very low dose initial infection can prime the immune system and give you an asymptomatic case.

...but even if you full blown covid, there is no exemption from the vaccine requirement - that's one of the main arguments of many health workers.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#364

Post by Beldin » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 11:09 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #91

DSMan195276 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. Where-as them being vaccinated for COVID does have a very clear impact on medicaid/medicare patients, especially since medicare patients are more likely to be in a high risk group (IE: old). It seems to me like you just d…

> The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning. It's whether the agency has the power to do it or not. For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines, so excluding healthcare workers w…

> For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines

Lots of things could be argued; some things shouldn't be argued without evidence.

During a pandemic, statements that will be interpreted as suggesting that catching the disease beats vaccination fall squarely in that category.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#365

Post by UnFleshedOne » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

zcw100 wrote: post #195

bko wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning. It's whether the agency has the power to do it or not. For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines, so excluding healthcare workers w…

> it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines It could be argued that we should wait for benevolent space aliens to come and cure it. Just because it could be argued doesn't mean it's a good argument.

The problem here is not preferring vaccines to natural immunity for previously uninfected people -- it is mandating vaccinations for people already having natural immunity. Once that comes into play you can be sure health outcomes are not the intention of the policy.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#366

Post by HyperRational » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 11:36 PM UTC

beerandt wrote: post #298

sjwalter wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The doctors here in Montana I've talked to about it are not exactly advertising it but are unvaccinated and have recommended to me to avoid the vaccine and one intimated it's insane to vaccinate children. So that's not the case with all doctors. Then again, I'm fit, healthy, great diet, low stress, eat well, lots of sunlight. Covid poses less risk to me than driving, my kids it doesn't rise to the level of conscious…

Also, it's not like doctors are doing it based on medical judgement. Their jobs are being threatened too, and are more likely to have large debt from school and to be the primary breadwinner of their family than nurses. Nurses just have more realistic freedom to say no.

No sane person who works with COVID patients would refuse the vaccine. Anyone stupid enough to do so should not be working in medicine. I think that the whole COVID vaccine thing will be raising the average IQ in a lot of fields.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#367

Post by HyperRational » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 11:37 PM UTC

sjwalter wrote: post #272

aixi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you're being disingenuous, but health care workers is a very wide group of people; most probably have absolutely no idea about 'whats in this thing', and in my experience most doctors are vaccinated --- it's hospital staff that aren't.

The doctors here in Montana I've talked to about it are not exactly advertising it but are unvaccinated and have recommended to me to avoid the vaccine and one intimated it's insane to vaccinate children. So that's not the case with all doctors. Then again, I'm fit, healthy, great diet, low stress, eat well, lots of sunlight. Covid poses less risk to me than driving, my kids it doesn't rise to the level of conscious…

"but are unvaccinated and have recommended to me to avoid the vaccine and one intimated it's insane to vaccinate children."

They should lose their medical license for spreading such utter lies.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#368

Post by cmh89 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 12:07 AM UTC

handrous wrote: post #349

tastyfreeze wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I will rebel against any authority that claims to know what is better for me than I do. Nobody is my master. That is what our Constitution protects. My individual right to do whatever the hell I want to as long as it doesn't inhibit other people from doing the same. That doesn't mean I would not comply just for the sake of it. If something is requested of me I will weigh the risks and benefits for myself a…

> Despite what the media and elected/appointed officials are telling you the SARS-CoV2 vaccine is not 100% safe[1] or effective[2]. Who the fuck's been saying either of those things? None of the mainstream sources I've seen, certainly. Usually, for the efficacy angle, they're emphasizing that it's not 100% effective, and that's part of why it's important that more people get vaccinated and that vaccinated people cont…

My thought is that anti-science folks are telling each other that the media and scientists are saying that mainly because the evidence that the COVID-19 vaccine is safe and effective is overwhelming. They need to move the goal post to "100%".

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#369

Post by q1w2 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 12:52 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #96

What I find most interesting is the private-sector scenarios and how they're playing out. I have relatives who work in healthcare and refuse to get the vaccine. They're at risk of losing their jobs because regardless of external pressure, the hospital employing them is incentivized to let them go by the patients. They're a hospital focused on physical therapy, which is does as much elective business by volume as pres…

I'm not sure I agree that it's a good time. The current vaccine probably has very limited efficacy against the new omicron variant.

Better to wait for the updated booster before forcing more people to take it.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#370

Post by shadowgovt » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

q1w2 wrote: post #369

shadowgovt wrote: post #96

What I find most interesting is the private-sector scenarios and how they're playing out. I have relatives who work in healthcare and refuse to get the vaccine. They're at risk of losing their jobs because regardless of external pressure, the hospital employing them is incentivized to let them go by the patients. They're a hospital focused on physical therapy, which is does as much elective business by volume as pres…

I'm not sure I agree that it's a good time. The current vaccine probably has very limited efficacy against the new omicron variant. Better to wait for the updated booster before forcing more people to take it.

Oh I didn't mean pass a law authorizing the executive to force vaccines.

I mean this would be a good time for Congress to show leadership in general. As in, make a decision. Really, any decision that shows some reasoning behind it. Entirely too many people in the service of legislature are more worried about their electability than doing a good job. There's a reason that branch has, on average, a mid-teens approval rating most of the time.